I don't have the luxury of verifying IP addresses- but I'll bet my right arm that it's - Immanuel Kant - posting. In fact, make that my right arm and my left arm!
I only say that because "perfectimpact" used the same horse and speed boat analogy a few days ago over at the GEA forums.
So it seems that what Coophitter is saying is that everything comes down at some point to leverage, whether there is pushing or pulling, it all comes back to leverage. Otherwise, there would never be any way to effectively "pull" anything without the leverage provided by a "push."
Well spoken RWH. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet or something like that. But I still observe such friendly debate among TGM students and AIs concerning the inherent meaning attached to so many of Mr. Kelley's words. For example, your words explain the essential passivity of the right arm during the release interval in Swinging versus the conscious deliberate muscular triceps thrust during Hitting's release interval. But I read in TGM and often hear from students and instructors that extensor action is ever present in the Swinging and Hitting procedures. In other words the right triceps is always trying to straighten the right arm in Swinging. That doesn't sound like a very passive right triceps. Is it just that Hitting's triceps activity is conscious and deliberate while in Swinging you don't know it's going on? I never knew I was a Hitter until George Kelnhofer told me I was.
Here is what I truly believe about the execution of golf strokes and it comes from my university physiology notes and related studies. I can't remember the textbooks I was studying at the time so I can't credit my references. These are certainly not my original thoughts however:
Although the whole musculoskeletal system is complex, the basic mechanics that create movement are quite simple. A muscle can only do two things; it can contract or it can relax. By attaching two bones over an articulating joint, when a muscle contracts it pulls the bones together and movement takes place. When the muscle is relaxed it can be stretched by the contraction of other muscles which pull and create movement in the other direction.
The moving body should not be seen, however, as the individual action of separate muscles. The system works as a whole to develop patterns of muscular activity that together can create a huge range of smooth and controlled movements. These patterns not only enable us to to perform a wide variety of complex activities, but also to be able to do them efficiently and with minimal stress. In most activities, individual muscles and joints are rarely taken to their extreme limits. The body develops patterns of movement which share the effort between numerous parts of the system so no individual part should be overstressed. A great example of this is that when a person naturally rotates the right humerus laterally with a bending elbow and then medially rotates the humerus allowing the elbow to straighten, a similar simultaneous rotation of the spine in both directions usually occurs.
Apart from the brain and the central nervous system, the musculoskeletal system is the most versatile and creative system of the body. It is not possible to learn or know exactly how the body moves in all situations; the most we can try to do is understand it.
The emphasis on various ideals of human movement does not correspond with the design of the body. The functions of the brain are asymetrical and most manual or sports related movements require us to use our body in asymetrical ways based on dominant sidedness, physical and neurochemical imbalances, and the nature of the task at hand. Tomosello's right arm swing with horizontal hinging is designed to create a draw which is not ideal ballflight. If I don't let my torso synchronize and rotate to accomodate this stroke, I'll hook the ball. On uphill lies and above my feet lies I'll hook it with right arm swinging so I tighten my grip and use whatever degree of angled hinging I think appropriate. I'd say that on more than half my shots like these where hooking means trouble, I tighten my grip, have the face look at the ball longer on the backswing, shorten and speed up my backswing and throughswing, and then angle hinge to varying degrees through impact. Tomasello said this was the pure Hitting. I still try to let my torso in these cases do the rotation thing it wants to do in rhythmic response, so I'm not sure even this is pure Hitting.
When I tried to be a swinger in the Kelnhofer camp, I was often so concerned with torso rotation that I did't let my arms swing and the ball went right. I've never gotten the hang of a passive right arm so I always straighten it. Conversely, I've never succeeded when I've prevented my spine from rotating when I employ so called right arm swinging. I hook the ball.
This will probably be my last lengthy post unless y'all really want to know my background which is extensive and multidisciplinary since graduating from college.
I will tell you I chose to major in English and that is why I write as I speak and sometimes can't stop. Thanks for the kind words and I look forward to shorter more direct posts on my part in the future.
Extensor Action in Swinging = Active Right Arm Thrust ?
Originally Posted by coophitter
Well spoken RWH. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet or something like that. But I still observe such friendly debate among TGM students and AIs concerning the inherent meaning attached to so many of Mr. Kelley's words. For example, your words explain the essential passivity of the right arm during the release interval in Swinging versus the conscious deliberate muscular triceps thrust during Hitting's release interval. But I read in TGM and often hear from students and instructors that extensor action is ever present in the Swinging and Hitting procedures. In other words the right triceps is always trying to straighten the right arm in Swinging. That doesn't sound like a very passive right triceps. Is it just that Hitting's triceps activity is conscious and deliberate while in Swinging you don't know it's going on? I never knew I was a Hitter until George Kelnhofer told me I was.
The Right Arm has contributed nothing but Motion for the Swinger, as opposed to Right Arm Action for the Hitter.
It cannot be 100% passive because of Extensor Action.
The push from the Right Triceps that pulls the Left Arm straight is constant. This steady effort to pull the Left Arm into a fixed length that does not increase during the Downstroke or Release.
Just because you see the right arm straightening during the Follow Through doesn't mean you're "adding". Centrifugal Force (as opposed to active Right Arm Thrust for the Hitter) uncocks both the Swinger's Right Elbow and Left Wrist during Release.
Well spoken RWH. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet or something like that. But I still observe such friendly debate among TGM students and AIs concerning the inherent meaning attached to so many of Mr. Kelley's words. For example, your words explain the essential passivity of the right arm during the release interval in Swinging versus the conscious deliberate muscular triceps thrust during Hitting's release interval. But I read in TGM and often hear from students and instructors that extensor action is ever present in the Swinging and Hitting procedures. In other words the right triceps is always trying to straighten the right arm in Swinging. That doesn't sound like a very passive right triceps. Is it just that Hitting's triceps activity is conscious and deliberate while in Swinging you don't know it's going on?
Sincerely, Cooper Osborne, GSEM, PGA
Cooper,
I, for one, really appreciate your insight and the quality of your posts.
I agree with Tongzilla on this one, and I'll give you another example and one of the ways I use to explain it:
Imagine a person leaning against you and you're keeping them at a constant distance with the triceps of the right arm (extensor action for Swinging and Hitting). I can keep you at that given distance with a constant pressure, but at any time, I can choose to actively employ the triceps to push you away (muscular drive out for Hitting).
I've asked this question about the role of extensor action for swingers before and i must admit my understanding is still clouded with fog. What i don't understand is i thought a swingers right arms were supposed to straighten due to centrifugal force, but surely the tension extensor action creates inhibits this. Does this mean a degree of inhibition is acceptable for a swinger?
YodasLuke,
i'm also unsure about your example. I'm not sure your analogy works with the golf swing, Isn't the person only kept at a constant distance when pressure point #4 is place. However, when this is released during the left arm blask off for the swinger wouldn't the same constant pressure result in the right arm straightening and thus using your analogy pushing the person away? Which from what i've read is indicative of a hit.
I really would appreciate any replies, i just can't get my head around this concept.
I've asked this question about the role of extensor action for swingers before and i must admit my understanding is still clouded with fog. What i don't understand is i thought a swingers right arms were supposed to straighten due to centrifugal force, but surely the tension extensor action creates inhibits this. Does this mean a degree of inhibition is acceptable for a swinger?
YodasLuke,
i'm also unsure about your example. I'm not sure your analogy works with the golf swing, Isn't the person only kept at a constant distance when pressure point #4 is place. However, when this is released during the left arm blask off for the swinger wouldn't the same constant pressure result in the right arm straightening and thus using your analogy pushing the person away? Which from what i've read is indicative of a hit.
I really would appreciate any replies, i just can't get my head around this concept.
Cheers,
Danny
Reading the page on extensor action, you'll find that "This stretches but does not move the Left Arm and produces a structural rigidity..."
In my analogy, if the person slowly moves away under his own power, my right arm can straighten 'passively'. But, I can still give him some help (drive out) in getting him out of my face. Also remember, in hitting, you're resisting the deceleration of the hands with muscular thrust.
Swinging versus Hitting as far as trigger types is active Left Wrist versus active Right Elbow. (7-20)
I agree, but if this leaning person decides to move away from you of his own accord, will your arm straighten? I don't think it will. I'll have to look up the particular muscles and get back to you, but in your example, I think muscles in addition to the triceps are being employed to prevent further bending of the right elbow. These same other muscles are the ones you use when you have bench pressed a barbell and you then make sure the return trip towards your chest of the barbell you have just pushed away doesn't happen too quickly. A better example of the extensor action Kelley is talking about would be trying to push the person away from you but he's so heavy you can't until lets you. In this case the triceps is active; it just can't do any work until it's allowed to. I don't know what this means relative to a golf swing but how do you make an active right triceps only stretch the left arm in swinging and actually drive or move it in hitting? I don't think there is a steady effort to straighten the bent right arm in Swinging. I think your example would actually be more correct than Kelley's in describing the role of the right arm in Swinging. In your example the right arm is not actively making a steady effort to straighten. It's only trying to resist bending.
Hybrid Mode
