Yoda, I appreciated your clarification of the grip very much. It straightens out a few question marks I got from the 'impact bag' video. I guess I'm guilty of trying to mimic the "1 ppt behind the shaft- 2nd ppt behind the shaft- 3rd ppt dead behind the shaft--> BAM!" by getting my left thumb on the right side of the shaft. This in turn made the back of the left hand almost face forward, so I was kind of wondering at what stage I was supposed to turn it through impact (a concept I'm having trouble with anyway).
Is it correct that 'behind' in the impact bag scenario should mean 'behind in relation to the down-out-forward arc'?
Should there also be a cushion of air between the shaft and the middle of the inside of the left hand when gripped? I've been gripping in my plam, I guess.
The TURNED LEFT HAND GRIP along with a FLAT LEFT WRIST.
Is this indeed a CLOSED CLUBFACE(CLUBFACE LOOKING TO SKY)?
Why do most good players that are in this position at the TOP(Trevino, Duval, Lietzke) actually FADE the ball?
This is a topic that should be addressed more. I'm fairly sure that Mr. Doyle actually says that the Clubface to Sky with Flat or Arched Left Wrist is OPEN, and vice versa. Of course many, many... most would say the exact opposite.
Of course whether one HOOKS or SLICES, depends a lot on how one brings the club and hands DOWN.
The TURNED LEFT HAND GRIP along with a FLAT LEFT WRIST.
Is this indeed a CLOSED CLUBFACE(CLUBFACE LOOKING TO SKY)?
Why do most good players that are in this position at the TOP(Trevino, Duval, Lietzke) actually FADE the ball?
This is a topic that should be addressed more. I'm fairly sure that Mr. Doyle actually says that the Clubface to Sky with Flat or Arched Left Wrist is OPEN, and vice versa. Of course many, many... most would say the exact opposite.
Of course whether one HOOKS or SLICES, depends a lot on how one brings the club and hands DOWN.
Arch your Left Wrist at Impact Fix . . . Clubface will OPEN. So maybe some people HOOK who have the Arch at the Top because the have to compensate for the alignment at the top which looks "shut" but is really OPENNING the clubface.
One interesting thing that I picked up by watching Yoda give this guy a lesson was that he was a bit Arched and as a result couldn't fully uncock to Full-Lever Extension. As a result could get completely DOWN because his Left Arm Wedge couldn't work properly.
gotta love the Machine.
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 04-24-2006 at 10:47 AM.
Arch your Left Wrist at Impact Fix . . . Clubface will OPEN. So maybe some people HOOK who have the Arch at the Top because the have to compensate for the alignment at the top which looks "shut" but is really OPENNING the clubface.
One interesting thing that I picked up by watching Yoda give this guy a lesson was that he was a bit Arched and as a result couldn't fully uncock to Full-Lever Extension. As a result could get completely DOWN because his Left Arm Wedge couldn't work properly.
gotta love the Machine.
Arch your left wrist at impact fix...clubface will tend to open. Correct. Actually, the clubface will be slightly delofted as well as opened slightly. Now try this...
Take your normal grip and cock the left wrist so the club comes straight up and the club and left arm form a 90 degree angle. Hold the club in front of your chest, arms parallel to the ground, clubshaft pointing to the sky, clubface "square". This mimics the left arm - clubshaft relationship at the top of the swing (90 degrees). Now arch your left wrist. The clubface will close as the shaft is axially rotated into a closed position, exactly the opposite effect as arching the wrist had on the clubface while in the address/impact position.
I picked up this interesting tidbit from a famous instructor who knows TGM inside and out, and I haven't heard anyone talk about this since.
As the number 3 accumulator angle increases or decreases, the resulting effects on the clubface change dramatically in regards to bowing (arching) or cupping (bending) the left wrist.
So, at the top of the swing, assuming a 90 degree angle between clubshaft and left arm exists, bowing the wrist shuts the clubface due to the shaft being axially rotated closed.
More food for thought...
Ben Hogan...
Cupped at the top...has an opening effect on the clubface...AND bowed at impact...also has an opening effect on the clubface...a perfect formula for a left-to-right ballflight.
That's the secret right there. It's not just the cupped left wrist at the top. It's not just the bowed left wrist at impact..it is the combination of the two.
Arch your left wrist at impact fix...clubface will tend to open. Correct. Actually, the clubface will be slightly delofted as well as opened slightly. Now try this...
Take your normal grip and cock the left wrist so the club comes straight up and the club and left arm form a 90 degree angle. Hold the club in front of your chest, arms parallel to the ground, clubshaft pointing to the sky, clubface "square". This mimics the left arm - clubshaft relationship at the top of the swing (90 degrees). Now arch your left wrist. The clubface will close as the shaft is axially rotated into a closed position, exactly the opposite effect as arching the wrist had on the clubface while in the address/impact position.
I picked up this interesting tidbit from a famous instructor who knows TGM inside and out, and I haven't heard anyone talk about this since.
As the number 3 accumulator angle increases or decreases, the resulting effects on the clubface change dramatically in regards to bowing (arching) or cupping (bending) the left wrist.
So, at the top of the swing, assuming a 90 degree angle between clubshaft and left arm exists, bowing the wrist shuts the clubface due to the shaft being axially rotated closed.
More food for thought...
Ben Hogan...
Cupped at the top...has an opening effect on the clubface...AND bowed at impact...also has an opening effect on the clubface...a perfect formula for a left-to-right ballflight.
That's the secret right there. It's not just the cupped left wrist at the top. It's not just the bowed left wrist at impact..it is the combination of the two.
.................................................
Very interesting vjcapron!!!
So it depends WHEN(at what stage) the LEFT WRIST is ARCHED or CUPPED(actually FLEXION or EXTENSION) during one's pattern?
Your explanation makes sense. More should be looked into involving this.
The DUVAL, LIETZKE, TREVINO, type of POSITION AT THE TOP is then actually SHUT? They then must make some type of compensation at Impact to OPEN the face... could be Angled Hinging.
So it depends WHEN(at what stage) the LEFT WRIST is ARCHED or CUPPED(actually FLEXION or EXTENSION) during one's pattern?
Your explanation makes sense. More should be looked into involving this.
The DUVAL, LIETZKE, TREVINO, type of POSITION AT THE TOP is then actually SHUT? They then must make some type of compensation at Impact to OPEN the face... could be Angled Hinging.
Let's get MORE INPUT ON THIS SUBJECT!!
Lagster,
I, too, think this is a very interesting topic and that it has not been studied enough. I guess that the complexity surrounding the different wrist positions and the resulting effects on the clubface is a good reason to just keep the left wrist flat and to maintain the left arm flying wedge as recommended by Yoda.
In response to your question about DUVAL, LIETZKE, and TREVINO...and I'll add LEHMAN to the list...yes, their clubface positions at the top are shut! Dead shut!
What do all these players have in common? They all setup open to their target lines. Since they all have strong left hand grips, they all destroy their left arm flying wedges on the way to the top, however they all comply with the law of the flail which enables them to time their clubface rotation shot after shot. We have fairly deep divots in this foursome, and a few back problems, too.
Dr. Jim Suttie would classify these guys as "Shut Face Players" and he has an interesting chapter on how to make these swings work in his new book.
The question is why does the left wrist appear cupped (bent) when one first turns the left hand on the grip so that the palm faces more groundwards at address, and then cocks the wrist upwards.
I believe that is is due to an anatomical re-arrangement of the wrist alignment due to forearm rotation (pronation). If one holds the flat left hand with fingers outstretched so that the back of the left hand is vertical, then any upcocking and downcocking wrist movement is a "pure" cocking movement (radial and ulnar deviation of the wrist at the radio-carpal joint). However, if one first pronates the left hand (which is a forearm movement and not a wrist movement) before gripping the club and then grips a club (producing a turned hand grip), and then performs the same vertical-to-the-ground cocking movement of the clubshaft, then the left wrist will bend (dorsiflex) because the cocking movement is occurring across the plane of the wrist joint, which is turned to the right secondary to a forearm rotary movement. To perform a "pure" cocking movement that will not produce bending of the left wrist in that turned hand situation, then the club must be cocked in the plane of the wrist joint - so if the left hand is pronated 30 degrees (which rotates the wrist plane 30 degrees), then the club must be cocked in a plane that is 30 degrees to the right.
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