The Finish Swivel

[tongzilla]

Regarding the Finish Swivel, I couldn't quite remember what Ben taught at Canton, but was it something like this?

[annikan skywalker]

I must not Know what I'm doing.... because if the clubface should look to the ground with the Correct Finish Swivel..then I really just don't know anything about TGM....So...I will continue my learning...Onward!!!

[12 piece bucket]

What Grip Type would you say Ben uses?

[lagster]

What Grip Type would you say Ben uses?

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Mr. 12 Piece... I suppose grip could be a factor here.

Not sure why Mr. Doyle wants the FACE pointing to the ground like this, but from talking with people that have been around him... this is what he wants.

I remember Mr. Yoda saying once in a situation similar to this... that just because the ball is gone does not mean that this(or similar) position is not important. I believe he said something about "a precision destination."

This is part of the "landing" of the golf stroke. You want a smooth landing. If the brain knows you are going to crash land, it will do something beforehand to prepare for that crash. Sooo... you better know how to "land." This idea came from Mr. Bleckley, who was/is associated with Mr. Kelnhofer G.S.E.D..

[mb6606]

I would suspect to be geometrically correct the club should swivel back on plane after contact (thus no under or over swivel). Just as it swiveled on plane on the back swing.

[Matt]

I would suspect to be geometrically correct the club should swivel back on plane after contact (thus no under or over swivel). Just as it swiveled on plane on the back swing.

I agree; you should ideally be re-planing the clubshaft and clubface after impact so it mirrors the downstroke.

[EdZ]

Mr. 12 Piece... I suppose grip could be a factor here.

Not sure why Mr. Doyle wants the FACE pointing to the ground like this, but from talking with people that have been around him... this is what he wants.
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First, whatever your views on the degree of swivel, there should be little argument for how important, and how lacking, rotation is for most players.

It is the single greatest bit of info I learned from reading Hogan's 5 Lessons.

Rotation point.

That said - I'm right there with Lynn - He learned the difference between hinge and swivel from Homer at 34. I learned it from Lynn a bit over a year ago at OCN (at about the same age).

The clearest way to 'feel' the difference is to get a true horizontal hinge action, which 'feels' very level. This combined with the straight line motion of the right arm (hitting or swinging, active or passive).

As for perverted or not, I would suggest the root issue is the clubface rotation around the sweet spot, not the hosel.

If #3 Accum is zero'd out, you wouldn't see this 'perversion' - but if you have a fair bit of #3, you will.

Grip type is certainly a factor as well.

[jim_0068]

Do "finish swivel" by the book (TGM) and the face should rest back on the plane just like it did on the backstroke/downstroke. Works well and may be "geometrically" correct.

If you do the finish swivel the "ben doyle" way it is technically "off plane" because it is now facing more towards the target than the plane but 2 things will happen:

1) you will hit the ball lower
2) you will hit the ball farther (smash factor)

I have proved this via launch monitors time and time again. It's just like "someone" said in an online video, "sometimes you want to maximize compression and sometimes you don't."

[tongzilla]

Do "finish swivel" by the book (TGM) and the face should rest back on the plane just like it did on the backstroke/downstroke. Works well and may be "geometrically" correct.

If you do the finish swivel the "ben doyle" way it is technically "off plane" because it is now facing more towards the target than the plane but 2 things will happen:

1) you will hit the ball lower
2) you will hit the ball farther (smash factor)

I have proved this via launch monitors time and time again. It's just like "someone" said in an online video, "sometimes you want to maximize compression and sometimes you don't."

Thanks Jim for providing information from your launch monitor experiments. A few queries if you don't mind. Can hitting the ball futher with this "over-roll" (Ben Doyle style) still produce a straight shot, or will it give the ball hook spin? Also, TGM says there's no Compression Leakage (except Backspin) with Horizontal Hinging. Do you think this is also true if you over-roll? When you say you will hit the ball further, do you mean carry distance, or carry plus roll?

[jim_0068]

Thanks Jim for providing information from your launch monitor experiments. A few queries if you don't mind. Can hitting the ball futher with this "over-roll" (Ben Doyle style) still produce a straight shot, or will it give the ball hook spin?

I am one of the straightest hitters of the ball i know, so i have no problem hitting the ball as dead straight as possible with this 'over rolling' issue. In fact, despite what others may say, i can even FADE the ball with this type of "swivel." The key though is you have to draw a straight plane line. Start 'bending' that plane line out to the right and it will be FOOOOOOOOOORE LEFT!

Also, TGM says there's no Compression Leakage (except Backspin) with Horizontal Hinging. Do you think this is also true if you over-roll?

I'll admit i'm not physics guru, far from it. But all i know is that if you do it "by the book" there isn't as much "smash" as there is with supposed "over rolling." Email me @ koby12@gmail.com and i'll give you a link to a video that has pretty solid evidence.

When you say you will hit the ball further, do you mean carry distance, or carry plus roll?

Probably both. All i'm saying is that with the same amount of speed and "effort" the ball will have more ball speed with the "ben doyle" swivel style. Do i know why? No. Can i prove it scientifically? No. All i have is a pretty convincing video and my launch monitor numbers.

Hope that helps