David Orr - The Right Forearm Takeaway

[nuke99]

Mind if i try?
Think about the ball and socket joint of the right shoulder for a moment. Is this purely a lateral motion of the right shoulder joint (fanning)?

Why is this procedure superior to a big muscle backstroke? (Acutally a combination of many, many small trunk and back muscles working in unison because the only big muscles of the upper trunk are lats and chest muscles)

Do not let the pivot gets in the way of delivery path/line, TGM. The Trunk simply reacts to the thought of educated hands' Motion.

When does the horizontal motion of the right shoulder joint come into play?

I was taught from body controlled pivot to hand controlled pivot simply, the right forearm lift the rightshoulder and the right shoulder pushes the left shoulder etc.

Should these pulled trunk muscles be active or passive?

Passive


What direction is the right elbow allowed (by nature) to move?

I am not very sure about this. but I think extensor action is force below plane Tricep pulls the elbow below plane. If there is extensor action and you pull your trunk back using forearm takeaway. the elbow would react to the hands.ie the hand pulls the elbow. That is why extensor action is very important in the elbow component. It should be allowed to move freely on a plane dependant on elbow variation. Pitch you allow roll + fan. punch you only allow fan. all reacting to the motion of the hands, Do you need to think about it? not really

Thanks for letting me try . I hope my Master had taught me well.

[birdie_man]

Is it superior tho? (all the time)

[cpwindow4]

clean with the right arm....Like a Cat
(the right arm move)
Not to forget it won 3 tour events this year.

[Bagger Lance]

It's really not that complicated, but for armchair work like we do here it can be really enlightening to understand how these things work.

Because when the wheels fall off, we at least know why, and how to correct it so the next shot is pure.

The beauty of the right forearm takeaway is that it's a more accurate and controlled procedure for most, because the hands are the command post for the alignments. David's emphasis at the end of the video.

I like it because the end result at the end or top of the backstroke can be more reliable than a pivot thrown hands location. That end result of a RFT is a hands position which is aligned to the selected plane, an upper torso position that is coiled without much slack, and hips that are positioned to lead the downstroke pivot action. Everything is turned and aligned "just enough".

Powerful stuff.

That said, one could argue that a pure swinger who allows the weight of a "thrown" on-plane clubhead to pull the body into ideal alignments would have a superior procedure. Maximum tendon pull is what swingers use to trigger changes in direction for the shot at hand. This assumes a lot. The inital startup to get the clubhead traveling on a managable plane is critical and sensing just the right amount of tendon pull is vital. Without alignment knowledge, It's pure golf artistry ala Bobby Jones that is very difficult to teach most golfers, unless it's engrained at a very early age. It get's more complicated as we get older because those darn tendons change.

For the rest of us, this is the next best thing and up for debate if it's just as good as a thrown clubhead backstroke.

Back to the video - What do you think of Davids comment, "The right forearm takeaway is really a shoulder turn takeaway"?

Super job David and thanks again. You've peeled the onion another layer or two.

[Yoda]

The beauty of the right forearm takeaway is that it's a more accurate and controlled procedure for most, because the hands are the command post for the alignments. David's emphasis at the end of the video.

Said Homer Kelley:

"The right forearm and #3 pressure point...you'll want to insure'm for a million bucks."

[nuke99]

Why is it more superior ? I know that some tgm "guru" made an assumption that it should be shoulder turn takeaway because it is more "powerful". Did he proof it?

I thought of this very wrong and let me try to proove it.
----------------part 1
Is it more "precise" to guide your hands to the desired plane so that your shoulder reacts to it. Or the other way round?

If u use a RFT, Your shoulder still does turn as fully but impossible to overuturn as it should only its more under control right?

How would you do a snap release with a Shoulder controlled pivot? Same question , how would you setup maximum trigger 1 2 3 using pivot controlled hand? or easier another way round? It is already proven to me, Hand controlled pivot is much more efficient, and repeatable.

-------------------- part 2
Unless the arguement is pure Force or momentum of the shoulder is greater than the hands. Now What is force? Force = 1/2 Mass x Velocity.

Mass = Affecting these are ; impact alignments(leakage and compression), Lag, stability, flat left wrist blah blah and your weight . I mean HOW exactly you put the weight of your shoulder behind the ball? You cannot because your shoulder cannot increase in weight .

Speed= from trigger delay 1 2 3. and 4. Try this .. Holding a whip use your body turn as fast as you can with the arm as far out as you can.

Then with ONLY your right arm , hand and wrist and whip it as fast as you can ... Question Which is maybe 3 x faster? can your body even create enough speed for the whip to crack alone? ... of course there are exception to different weight of the whip etc, You must have enough strength to fully control the whip. You get more speed with the arms and hands , alignments, Not the brute moving of the shoulder. You can turn them fast but fast acceleration of your shoulder and body = lost of rhythm, tempo = lost control. Thus why 5-0 to control the force and Monitor the pressure point as it provide instant feedback.


-----------------------------------

That is why the Intro and chapter 2 is very important, the role of left and right arms. endless belt, alignments. If u do not understand that 2 chapter more or less. I think More or less you cannot understand the whole TGM.

"Do not let the pivot gets in the way of delivery path/line," TGM <~~ thats why its here.

Another thing, Why is the Endless belt there? Physics. Constant belt speed and accelerating at the end! In order to control the swing , you must have Rhythm, Tempo. mean constantly accelerating.

Will it be difficult to control the swing if your pivot is swinging as fast as possible ? or let your educated hands create the speed and your body reacts to the hand?

Your conclusion? Who is teaching junk?

I don't believe in everything my dad told me.

[nuke99]

Lets talk about Homer Kelly,

The body controlled pivot swing is obviously so much easier to understand and convincing. if he write a book based on that, well he won't need so many confusing chapters to explain it. WHY he took the effort to explain SO many extra things? He took a good part of his life challenging his believe i guess. and keep correcting and challenging the concept.

To give the benifit of the doubt. Kelly may not gave a Total solution still. Someone will for instance may discover some other things to add on to the golf machine to either explain things better, or a better procedure, added components etc, or revamp the whole concept of the core of TGM. Who knows, i am waiting But please at least proove it like Homer do.

[mrodock]

Would it be correct to say the RFT is really a right shoulder turn takeaway and everything responds to that, i.e. left shoulder has to respond because the left hand is on the grip? If we were using both forearms to take the club back, up, and in would it then be a shoulder turn takeaway?

Matt

[danny_shank]

Guys i use my pivot to supply momentum to swing my hands to the top. However i still perform right forearm tracing and monitor the pressure points in my hands. Yet by what i've read on this thread i would be thrown in the inferior pivot controled hands group as my right forearm does not drag everything to the top. Is this correct? As i'm just using the same concepts for a swinger taught for the downstroke but for the backswing as well.

On another note i've experimented with the right forearm dragging everything to the top and as a swinger found it hard to get to grips with. For me it seemed to encourage hitting tendancies as i found it hard changing the power source from backswing to downswing. When using my pivot as the power source i get more of a feeling of the swinging forces early in the swing and it seems a more natural transition into the downswing.