Thanks for the reply compda, but i am still pulling the with the left arm with zero pivot. The feeling that doesn't feel right is because the left arm is not inert and is not being propelled by the pivot as in total motion. Because it's moving itself in zero pivot it has muscular tension. I'm a bit stuck at the moment. Because is feels as if it;s ingraining a habit (i.e starting the downswing with mucsular effort of the left arm) that i don't want in my full swing.
Danny,
This should be the information you are looking for. There is nobody better to get this from than the man himself:
The Basic Motion (Stage One) involves a miniaturized Stroke (12-0) -- approximately two feet back and two feet through. It puts in place the Basic Body Position and the Power Package alignments. It is a One-Accumulator Stroke, and that one Accumulator may be either the Right Arm (Accumulator #1 / Hitting) or the Left ( Accumulator #4 / Swinging).
I have elected to begin the Stroke from the Half-and-Half Fix (10-8-C). Here, the Body is in Standard Address Position, and the Hands are in their Impact Location and Position. This is the second of four Address Position alternatives listed in 10-9-0; namely, "Both at selected Impact" (10-9-0-2).
Let's examine this Selected Impact Address Position (10-9-B) and its Power Package alignments and then the Basic Stroke itself.
The Body
1. Square Stance and Plane Line.
2. Feet close together with Weight slightly toward heels.
3. Appropriate Knee and Waist Bend.
4. Hips Square.
5. Head centered.
The Arms
1. In Normal Position, i.e., Left Arm Straight and Right Arm Bent (6-A-4).
2. Right Forearm On Plane (2-F).
3. Left Arm and Right Forearm Flying Wedges established and properly aligned (6-B-3-0-1).
The Hands
1. Strong Single-Action Grip (10-2-B).
2. In Impact Location.
3. Left Wrist Flat.
The Club
1. Forward-Leaning Clubshaft.
2. Clubface Square.
The Stroke
1. Only one of the Arm Accumulators (Right Arm or Left) is active in this Stage One. The Hand Action Accumulators (Left Wrist Cock and Uncock and Left Hand Turn and Roll) are introduced in Stage Two (Acquired Motion). I have chosen to use the Right Arm and the bending and straightening of the Right Elbow to lift and lower the Left Arm (7-3) and to provide the Basic Thrust of the Stroke. Thus, this is a Hitting Stroke. Had I elected to Swing, I would have used my Left Arm to Pull the Club through Impact (Pull Minor Basic Stroke / 10-3-D). Also, I may have used the Standard Address Position with an Extensor Action Takeaway (6-B-1-D) to Flatten the Left Wrist (and Bend the Right) in Start-Up. Had that been the case, Backstroke Arm Motion would have been minimal. Downstroke action and alignments would have remained the same.
2. Note that my Right Shoulder moves little, if at all, throughout the Stroke. That's because I am using my bending Right Arm -- and not my rocking Body -- to move the Club away from the Ball. In Start Up, I apply Extensor Action against Pressure Point #1 (heel of the Right Hand against the Left Hand thumb), and I use my Right Forearm and bending Right Elbow to "Carry" (7-9) the Left Arm and Club (Primary Lever Assembly) to the Top (Up, Back and In in a true Three-Dimensional Start-Up). The Right Forearm Fans (about the Elbow) and Traces the Straight Plane Line. Had this been a Swing, I would have used a "Swing-Back" Motion instead of the Hitter's "Carry-Back" Motion. Also, when using Standard Address position of the Hands, I would initiate Extensor Action using Pressure Point #3 [Right Hand index finger] to pull the Left Arm and Clubshaft In-Line. But no matter which Motion is employed, the geometry of the Right Arm and Elbow Action -- how they 'look' to an observer -- is identical. All this is in stark contrast to most golfers whose Basic Motion is to freeze their Right Arm and Elbow and then to rock their Body back-and-forth to move the Club (Paw Minor Basic Stroke / 10-3-H).
3. During the Start Down, I Load my bent Right Elbow against Pressure Point #3 (Drive Loading / 10-19-A). From the Top, I simply Push radially (sidewise) the entire Left Arm and Club Assembly through Impact (Right Arm Throw / 10-20-B). When Swinging, I Load my Level Left Wrist against Pressure Point #2, the last three fingers of the Left Hand (Drag Loading / 10-19-C). I then simply Pull longitudinally (lengthwise) only the Club itself through Impact (Left Wrist Throw / 10-20-E).
4. At Impact, I have returned precisely to my Half-and-Half Fix Address Position alignments. The Body -- including the Head -- has remained Motionless and the Power Package (Arms, Hands and Club) has returned to its Impact alignments. Compare Photos #1 and #14. They are identical.
5. Through Impact, my Right Elbow Drive-Out against Pressure Point #3 (and possibly #1) has automatically produced Angled Hinge Action (10-10-C). That is, the Flat Left Wrist has remained perpendicular (Vertical) to the Angled Plane of the Stroke. This Action is executed as a 'No Roll' Feel and produces a 'Half-Roll' of the Clubface at the end of the Follow-Through. In contrast, the Swinger's Centrifugal Force Throw-Out will automatically produce Horizontal Hinge Action (10-10-D). That is, the Flat Left Wrist will remain perpendicular (Vertical) to the Horizontal Plane. This Action is executed as a 'Roll' Feel and produces a 'Full-Roll' of the Clubface. All Hinge Actions MUST be executed on the Straight Line Delivery Line. This is the essential requirement for all Golf Strokes and why only Items #22 and #39 are capitalized in the Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes (12-3-0).
6. My bent Right Elbow at Impact continues its Drive toward the Plane Line (NOT toward the Target!) during the Follow-Through (1-L-10 and -15). The Angled Hinge Action has insured that the Left Arm and Clubshaft have remained In-Line and that there is perfect Rhythm (RPM).
7. The Stroke concludes when my Right Arm has fully-straightened (6-G-0-C). This is the end of the Follow-Through (Section 11), and because it is also the end of the Stroke, it constitutes the Finish (Section 12). Since the Thrust has continued Down Plane until the Right Elbow has fully-straightened, there properly has been no 'Upstroke.' This despite the fact that the Club itself has passed Low Point (opposite the Left Shoulder) and has begun its own Upward, Inward and Forward journey to the Finish.
Work on your Basic Motion. Pay attention to each Component and its alignments. This is the foundation-stone of your Stroke and of your Game.
It is no less than The Gateway to your best Golf.
__________________
Yoda
__________________
"Golf is not a subject but a motor skill which can only be learned and not taught." - Michael Hebron
"The Body, Arms and Hands have specific assignments during the Golf Stroke, and they must be coordinated into one efficient motion." - Lynn Blake
Thanks for the quote KnighT. Yoda certaintly gives a very comprehensive description of basic motion. Unfortunately for me it only confirms my confusion.
It's frustrating for me because i love the idea of basic motion. The fact you can practice critical components in such a short swing. I already feel i have gotten to know the pressure points much better by doing it. The problem is my one of my biggest problems when playing is over accelerating via independent left arm motion and i'm afraid practicing basic motion will just enhance this.
Thanks for the quote KnighT. Yoda certaintly gives a very comprehensive description of basic motion. Unfortunately for me it only confirms my confusion.
It's frustrating for me because i love the idea of basic motion. The fact you can practice critical components in such a short swing. I already feel i have gotten to know the pressure points much better by doing it. The problem is my one of my biggest problems when playing is over accelerating via independent left arm motion and i'm afraid practicing basic motion will just enhance this.
Danny,
Here comes some questions that might help clear up the problem
Do you feel you have enough extensor action?
Are you left or right handed?
Is the right hand positioned correct on the grip?
Which pressure point do you focus on?
IMO
Use only the right hand at start up.
Only use Acc #1 in basic motion so you can obtain the 3D impact (DOWN,out and forward), and do it by using pressurepoint #1.
Take a look at 6-B-1-0 and 6-B-1-D
Post your thoughts
__________________
Golf is an impossible game with impossible tools - Winston Churchill
In answer to your questions (i'm a swinger by the way):
- I have enough extensor action to feel a slight stretch in my left arm. I apply it through pp #1.
- I'm right handed and play right handed
- I've done a lot of work on my grip and i pretty sure it's good although i've never had that verified by an AI. When gripping with my right i just focus on PP #3 and PP #1 being inline straight down the right side of the shaft towards the sweet spot.
- I concentrate on pp #3 going back, then #2 and #3 going down.
With regards to whats moving what in my basic motion, i drag it back with the right arm and then pull it down with my left.
To give you a bit more info as to where i feel the problem may lie. When playing (i.e not basic motion) i feel like my downswing is initiated by my feet, whether it be a drive, pitch, chip or putt. But when doing basic i feel because theres no pivot, the radius is shortened to my left shoulder. This makes the change of direction feel quick, sharp, tense (all things i associate with playing badly) instead of the lazy and effortless feeling i get when playing well. I also feel like my balance is disrupted slightly.
Danny, I agree with the difficulty in concepts that you describe. If one truly executes a swinging basic motion ZERO pivot shot it has to have a left arm pull feel. Remember that the strictest definition of hitter and swinger ( so that it can be applied to basic as well as total motion) is of "pulling" - drag loading shaft ( as opposed to the hitters "push" - drive loading).
That means that basic motion swinging is still pulling but without the pivot motion ( as you describe from feet upwards - just like Percy Boomer so eloquently describes).
Summary:-
Basic motion has same alignments as total motion through impact BUT the feel for Basic motion swingers will be different when compared with total motion swingers( different power source)- both still "swing" because of drag load and "pulling".
Hitters have same alignments and power source in Basic and total motion.
I have never had this confirmed but this is the only way I can rationalise it - I await correction from learned colleagues!
Maybe the Chip -pitch ( as used by Ben Doyle who almost exclusively teaches swinging) is the better option for a swinger's basic motion. This would enable the swingers basic motion to match the total motion in both feel and alignments.
For swingers to get the pivot dragging left arm feel you need to have a pivot. MAybe thats why Ben does chip -pitch? See that video in gallery where Ben and Lynn demonstrating basic motion - Ben stresses that Pivot takes the hands forward...
I have often felt that Homer's desire to academically unify hitting and swinging with concepts of equal importance for both is, perhaps, a misjudgement. ( emoticon for heresy??! but i will expand if questioned on a seperate thread)... but i read on another thread that the first edition did not formally isolate hitting and swinging ... it grew later... and he was planning to formally seperate teh two patterns in two different books... to me that makes sense...
Hitting is a less pivot dominated stroke ( generally) and hence is suited to zero pivot stroke basi motion... as you describe the majority of a swingers strokes ( acquired and total motion) wil be pivot -driven hands controlled.
I have often felt that Homer's desire to academically unify hitting and swinging with concepts of equal importance for both is, perhaps, a misjudgement. ( emoticon for heresy??! but i will expand if questioned on a seperate thread)... but i read on another thread that the first edition did not formally isolate hitting and swinging ... it grew later... and he was planning to formally seperate teh two patterns in two different books... to me that makes sense...
I think that was in reference to a post that I made- just so I can sleep at night - I would not say that he was planning to separate the two patterns into two books- I believe he mentioned it as a passing thought- something that he might have to do , or might want to do. My assumption is that he might have done it IF A) He found it important enough, B) Had the time, C) Had the money. And as things played out- he didn't have B and never had C.
But I did understand what you were saying- so ignore my nitpicking - and back to the regular scheduled show.
I think that was in reference to a post that I made- just so I can sleep at night - I would not say that he was planning to separate the two patterns into two books- I believe he mentioned it as a passing thought- something that he might have to do , or might want to do. My assumption is that he might have done it IF A) He found it important enough, B) Had the time, C) Had the money. And as things played out- he didn't have B and never had C.
But I did understand what you were saying- so ignore my nitpicking - and back to the regular scheduled show.
That's right - sorry i could not remember my source - shame he didn't have more B but glad that he had G, O, L, and F
In answer to your questions (i'm a swinger by the way):
- I have enough extensor action to feel a slight stretch in my left arm. I apply it through pp #1.
- I'm right handed and play right handed
- I've done a lot of work on my grip and i pretty sure it's good although i've never had that verified by an AI. When gripping with my right i just focus on PP #3 and PP #1 being inline straight down the right side of the shaft towards the sweet spot.
- I concentrate on pp #3 going back, then #2 and #3 going down.
With regards to whats moving what in my basic motion, i drag it back with the right arm and then pull it down with my left.
To give you a bit more info as to where i feel the problem may lie. When playing (i.e not basic motion) i feel like my downswing is initiated by my feet, whether it be a drive, pitch, chip or putt. But when doing basic i feel because theres no pivot, the radius is shortened to my left shoulder. This makes the change of direction feel quick, sharp, tense (all things i associate with playing badly) instead of the lazy and effortless feeling i get when playing well. I also feel like my balance is disrupted slightly.
Thanks for the help,
Danny
Danny,
Regarding your right hand grip. Here is A WAY of checking it. Put the club on a table with the clubface facing "down". Now put your right hand on top of the grip and push the club against the table with pp #1 and #3.
I would suggest that, since it is only 2 feet back and 2 feet through, you only use the right hand, i.e. pull back and push through. And using pp#1 and perhanps #3.Stand in front of a mirror and LOOK. The only thing that should move is the arms.
Your grip pressure should be FIRM but FLEXIBLE. This could help you obtain the smoothness you are looking for.
Regarding your total motion, have a look at 6-M-1.
Looking forward to your comments.
__________________
Golf is an impossible game with impossible tools - Winston Churchill
Last edited by Amen Corner : 11-04-2006 at 09:53 AM.
Thanks for your thoughts golfbulldog, made interesting reading. Nice to know i'm not going completely loopy
Amen Corner i tried your right hand grip drill and not much really happened. The clubface was just trapped against the table.
Quote:
I would suggest that, since it is only 2 feet back and 2 feet through, you only use the right hand, i.e. pull back and push through. And using pp#1 and perhanps #3.Stand in front of a mirror and LOOK. The only thing that should move is the arms.
I tried the above and it was smoother and more controled than my other basic motion. But it felt like a definite hit not a swing.
Regarding your last comment about total motion. I read 6-M-1 and took it to mean in the context of my over accelerlation issues that i'm effectively shortening my radius too early, which is why it feels so quick. It's all about maintaining lag in the lower body and then allowing the accumulators to release naturally.
Thanks for your thoughts golfbulldog, made interesting reading. Nice to know i'm not going completely loopy
Amen Corner i tried your right hand grip drill and not much really happened. The clubface was just trapped against the table.
I tried the above and it was smoother and more controled than my other basic motion. But it felt like a definite hit not a swing.
Regarding your last comment about total motion. I read 6-M-1 and took it to mean in the context of my over accelerlation issues that i'm effectively shortening my radius too early, which is why it feels so quick. It's all about maintaining lag in the lower body and then allowing the accumulators to release naturally.
Danny,
I am sorry for the incomplete instruction regarding the righthand grip. I was in a hurry going out but wanted to post the thread.
When you put the right hand on the club and press with both pp#1 and 3, then take up the club and you should have a ok right handgrip. Modern teaching (which I was guilty to also before I found TGM)teaches out a grip where at the best only pp#3 could push the club against the table.
Regarding the basic motion - I could be wrong about this, if that is the case,I am ready to listen and learn.
There cannot be any pulling by the left arm in basic motion, since it is only 2 feet back and 2 feet through
This statement is made with following in mind. The short distance and per 1L 7/8/10.
What you are doing is building the structure of your swing. In this case the 3D impact and taking it to the end of followthrough,i.e both arms straight.
Now continuing towards the total motion:
When you have this solid base under control, go on to stage 2, where you start as in basic motion. Zero out the pivot, shoulder turn and wrist action first. Take the right forearm to the level to the ground position and hit some balls. When you are comfortable with it add shoulder turn and hit balls. Keep on the same procedure and adding hip turn, desired wrist action and lagloading. Having come this far and controlling it, you continue up to total motion.
Now, this is only A WAY of doing it.
Ok, I am going to bed now and will log on (my) tomorrow to see if there is a reward on me
__________________
Golf is an impossible game with impossible tools - Winston Churchill
Hybrid Mode
