I have no doubt that what DG learned from TT is what DG posts here. Many of TT's other students got different instruction at different times. This happens with many instructors. I cannot comment on TT other then to, like DG, refer you back to the Tapes and Interview. I do say watch the real swing and not the slo-mo. From DG’s description of Delayed Hip Action, TT or DG takes the all important hips lead on the downswing out, which makes it STANDARD on the DS. I have no problem with it- it just ain’t delayed Hip Action no matter how you paint it.
Again- This discussion is like the movie “Ground Hog Day.” Same stuff posted in 2005, etc- just different people wondering the same points to the same DG. It is hard to believe that in all the years TT taught, the three days with DG would be the only authentic ones.
I cannot answer TT questions- watch the tapes and read the interview. The standard magic answer.
Tom Tomasello, like Ben Doyle and other early friends of Homer Kelley are very important to all tgmers. Homer could not have survive without them. We have much to be thankful for.
Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not.
Three points from Lynn Blake posted a few years back: (Edited from longer posts and emphasis is mine)
1- Homer Kelley did indeed prefer the Delayed Hip Turn. Despite the popularity of the Standard Action for centuries, he saw "absolutely no reason" for the Hips to lead the Shoulders in the Backstroke.
With Delayed Hip Action, the Shoulders lead the Hips on the Backstroke and the Hips lead the Shoulders on the Downstroke.
2- Both Hitter and Swinger use Pivot Lag (Hips lead Shoulders in the Downstroke) to Load the Power Package (via the On Plane Right Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4). The only difference between the two is what is being Loaded and how.
3- Both Hitters and Swingers properly utilize the Pivot to overcome the Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down.
In other words, the Body Pulls the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until- pending- in anticipation- waiting for- the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.
From Homer to Yoda to Me. Delayed Hip Action via Hula Hula, loading Lag and delivery by highly educated Flying Wedges.
Obviously this could go on and on. I appreciate the discussion. I have trouble with ( or at least I question in the context of a questioning of ideas presented by Tomasello):
" if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing."
This seems to automatically associate DHA with hips leading the downswing. I don't have my book with me. But I'm pretty sure 7-15 does not say "hips lead the downswing", it says "hips lead the shoulders" (precise definition of hip action). Important distiction for me.
This definitely leaves the door open for something else to lead the downswing.
What is the wording in 10-19 - C? I'll check later.
"Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball."
Hula Hula is a subset of the pivot. It is the pivot (or part of). Can you say, " 'Part of the pivot (or action of the pivot) sets up the hands, clears the hips, and allows for a hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball' " This sounds like pivot controlled hands.
"Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not."
The hands make the pivot work in a hands controlled pivot. Maybe it is strictly the brain knowing the intent of the hands or maybe a very small action (i'm not sure). As you can tell from the rest of the golf world, humans pay attention, to and notice more the big items (hips as opposed to the slightest hand action or feel).
Obviously this could go on and on. I appreciate the discussion. I have trouble with ( or at least I question in the context of a questioning of ideas presented by Tomasello):
" if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing."
This seems to automatically associate DHA with hips leading the downswing. I don't have my book with me. But I'm pretty sure 7-15 does not say "hips lead the downswing", it says "hips lead the shoulders" (precise definition of hip action). Important distiction for me.
This definitely leaves the door open for something else to lead the downswing.
What is the wording in 10-19 - C? I'll check later.
"Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball."
Hula Hula is a subset of the pivot. It is the pivot (or part of). Can you say, " 'Part of the pivot (or action of the pivot) sets up the hands, clears the hips, and allows for a hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball' " This sounds like pivot controlled hands.
"Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not."
The hands make the pivot work in a hands controlled pivot. Maybe it is strictly the brain knowing the intent of the hands or maybe a very small action (i'm not sure). As you can tell from the rest of the golf world, humans pay attention, to and notice more the big items (hips as opposed to the slightest hand action or feel).
The Hands train the pivot to work.
If you think the Hands need to move before the pivot can function, that it needs to move a hit a switch before any part of the body can move then you fail to see the big picture.
Both Hitters and Swingers, as Homer and Yoda teach, have the Pivot pull the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.
What moves first in the pivot? The clearing action of Hula Hula- the hips. This is not pivot control hands as you think. The clearing allows nothing but unobstructed freedom for the hands to swing.
And I surely hope you lead your downswing with the shoulders and not the arms are hands unless you like to OTT. Perhaps over active clamps- the Hands are a problem. Close that door as soon as possible. Hips lead the Downswing because they lead the shoulders which lead the Hands- Its called PIVOT LAG. P-I-V-O-T L-A-G. One of three types of LAG.
10-19-C calls for "an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action so that the throw out Action can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke sequence."
What is the Downstroke sequence? Well according to Homer in 6-M-1 in starts with the "feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock, and/or Left Hand rotation. That overcoming of Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down by the pivot with start to pull your arrow from the quiver.
The Power Accumulator release always starts with #4 which is an attempt to 'blast off' off the left arm by the right shoulder thrust. Then #1, #2, and #3.
This is what Homer wrote. This is what Yoda lifted fog from. This is TGM fact.
Can you lower the Hands then pivot? Sure, much closer to a Standard- old time- hip action, 10-14-A. Maybe this is what TT taught DG. Others say they were taught something else. I really don't care. I'd much rather hear from other students of Tom's would might be slightly removed from the "awe."
BUT... allowing the hips to clear and the pivot to overcome of Clubhead Inertia at the start of the stroke is NOT Pivot control.
The Hands train the pivot to work.
If you think the Hands need to move before the pivot can function, that it needs to move a hit a switch before any part of the body can move then you fail to see the big picture.
Both Hitters and Swingers, as Homer and Yoda teach, have the Pivot pull the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.
What moves first in the pivot? The clearing action of Hula Hula- the hips. This is not pivot control hands as you think. The clearing allows nothing but unobstructed freedom for the hands to swing.
And I surely hope you lead your downswing with the shoulders and not the arms are hands unless you like to OTT. Perhaps over active clamps- the Hands are a problem. Close that door as soon as possible. Hips lead the Downswing because they lead the shoulders which lead the Hands- Its called PIVOT LAG. P-I-V-O-T L-A-G. One of three types of LAG.
10-19-C calls for "an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action so that the throw out Action can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke sequence."
What is the Downstroke sequence? Well according to Homer in 6-M-1 in starts with the "feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock, and/or Left Hand rotation. That overcoming of Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down by the pivot with start to pull your arrow from the quiver.
The Power Accumulator release always starts with #4 which is an attempt to 'blast off' off the left arm by the right shoulder thrust. Then #1, #2, and #3.
This is what Homer wrote. This is what Yoda lifted fog from. This is TGM fact.
Can you lower the Hands then pivot? Sure, much closer to a Standard- old time- hip action, 10-14-A. Maybe this is what TT taught DG. Others say they were taught something else. I really don't care. I'd much rather hear from other students of Tom's would might be slightly removed from the "awe."
BUT... allowing the hips to clear and the pivot to overcome of Clubhead Inertia at the start of the stroke is NOT Pivot control.
First of all, I'm not a big fan of the term "uncock right forearm from the top."
Drive the hands to the plane line (however slight at the start down), yes.
Certainly, the hands don't need to move before the pivot can function. But this leads to at least tempoary control by the pivot (has an effect of the hand position). Always keep hand postion (through hand control) in relation to plane line.
With concentration first on Hula Hula, and not on hands, Hula Hula will influence the hands (have control over hands - opposite of hand-controlled).
Clubhead lag - the secret of golf calls for all out concentration on the hands, at all times. Stop creating pressure with the hands and you will surely have over the top. Hips lead the soulders. Hands lead the downswing because they are able to maintain relationship to plane line, not the hips. Lag pressure enables a controlling of the direction of the clubhead (tracing the plane line).
Take over downstroke sequence - sequence that the action of the hands control (by maintaining clubhead lag pressure).
Overall, I can't buy into terminology that states "hips lead the down swing."
This is because "hips = part of the pivot" and I cannot say "part of the pivot leads (leads meaning "in charge of") the downswing." Hips accomplish work and have motion in the downswing but I can't buy into a leading role. Pros have probably played wonderful golf with the hips in the lead, but hips in the lead, to me, is not the hands controlled pivot of The Golfing Machine. Thanks for the work on the replies. I've learned a lot.
Overall, I can't buy into terminology that states "hips lead the down swing."
This is because "hips = part of the pivot" and I cannot say "part of the pivot leads (leads meaning "in charge of") the downswing." Hips accomplish work and have motion in the downswing but I can't buy into a leading role. Pros have probably played wonderful golf with the hips in the lead, but hips in the lead, to me, is not the hands controlled pivot of The Golfing Machine. Thanks for the work on the replies. I've learned a lot.
I'm done.
Lead means to be ahead of, not to pilot or guide. Hips move ahead of the shoulders. PLAIN AND SIMPLY. And since the Hands designed and are always monitoring- the three esstenials are intact. No fkn way does any movement of the pivot relocates the hands. In fact they assure staying ON Plane since they do not have to re-locate themselves veering off and back on. That is what the Pivot is trained for. Easy access to the ball.
I leave you with this. Everything I wrote is from Homer. Everything I learned about the G.O.L.F. stroke came from Homer's Book and explainations and instruction from Yoda. According to you- they both teach pivot control. Glad you debunked the myth.
First of all, I'm not a big fan of the term "uncock right forearm from the top."
Drive the hands to the plane line (however slight at the start down), yes.
Certainly, the hands don't need to move before the pivot can function. But this leads to at least tempoary control by the pivot (has an effect of the hand position). Always keep hand postion (through hand control) in relation to plane line.
With concentration first on Hula Hula, and not on hands, Hula Hula will influence the hands (have control over hands - opposite of hand-controlled).
Clubhead lag - the secret of golf calls for all out concentration on the hands, at all times. Stop creating pressure with the hands and you will surely have over the top. Hips lead the soulders. Hands lead the downswing because they are able to maintain relationship to plane line, not the hips. Lag pressure enables a controlling of the direction of the clubhead (tracing the plane line).
Take over downstroke sequence - sequence that the action of the hands control (by maintaining clubhead lag pressure).
You miss the point about Hula Hula- the hips move without the shoulders moving. If the shoulders don’t move – How can the hands be moved by them? They can’t. HULA HULA only moves the hips - nothing else. Please get that point correct. Independent movement from shoulders. Let the Hands grip the club at this point.
I spoke of PIVIOT LAG - I didn't talk about Clubhead Lag. You load Accumulator Lag on the backstroke. Crank start the Downstroke by loading Pivot Lag – at least according to Homer Kelley. Only now can Clubhead Lag PRESSURE be obtained. You don’t order it, you don’t think it. You load it. You load that Clubhead Lag PRESSURE (different from hands ahead of clubhead alignment which most the world only sees as Lag) only by loading your Accumulators and Pivot Lag. And Lag Pressure is inert- you don’t let the hands move it. Accumulators move them to prevent throw-away
The Pivot Lag is the crank of the “gear train”, the explosion of the launching pad. It is part of Educated Hands. Educate them. Get away from a pivot control take-away (shoulder turn and standard hip action) and use a Right Forearm Take-away. Remember the Magic? The gear train sequentially drags its preceding Component. And you say this is pivot control? Homer was wrong I guess. Once the Hands are Educated- they are Clamps with sensors.
I find that many are afraid to pivot because of the Hands control the Pivot axiom fearing that they are now pivot control- baloney. If you don’t pivot, throw darts.
One last point you don't see- the hip action doesn't move the hands off the incline plane. Hula Hula doesn't create a hip/Hand relationship. I'm afraid you misunderstood the word -lead. Lead in this context only means “ahead of- or comes before.” It does not mean steer or bring in a line.
Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?
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You miss the point about Hula Hula- the hips move without the shoulders moving. If the shoulders don’t move – How can the hands be moved by them? They can’t. HULA HULA only moves the hips - nothing else. Please get that point correct. Independent movement from shoulders. Let the Hands grip the club at this point.
I spoke of PIVIOT LAG - I didn't talk about Clubhead Lag. You load Accumulator Lag on the backstroke. Crank start the Downstroke by loading Pivot Lag – at least according to Homer Kelley. Only now can Clubhead Lag PRESSURE be obtained. You don’t order it, you don’t think it. You load it. You load that Clubhead Lag PRESSURE (different from hands ahead of clubhead alignment which most the world only sees as Lag) only by loading your Accumulators and Pivot Lag. And Lag Pressure is inert- you don’t let the hands move it. Accumulators move them to prevent throw-away
The Pivot Lag is the crank of the “gear train”, the explosion of the launching pad. It is part of Educated Hands. Educate them. Get away from a pivot control take-away (shoulder turn and standard hip action) and use a Right Forearm Take-away. Remember the Magic? The gear train sequentially drags its preceding Component. And you say this is pivot control? Homer was wrong I guess. Once the Hands are Educated- they are Clamps with sensors.
I find that many are afraid to pivot because of the Hands control the Pivot axiom fearing that they are now pivot control- baloney. If you don’t pivot, throw darts.
One last point you don't see- the hip action doesn't move the hands off the incline plane. Hula Hula doesn't create a hip/Hand relationship. I'm afraid you misunderstood the word -lead. Lead in this context only means “ahead of- or comes before.” It does not mean steer or bring in a line.
You underestimate your Hands.
In swinging, lag pressure is initially obtained by "throwing" the Club against the Lag Pressure point at the top for drag loading (or with start down motion for Float Loading). I don't think initial club head lag, or the club head's resistance to motion, is established "only by loading accumulators and pivot lag" Just hold a club up, the hands can feel the dead weight of the club head. Just because something is inert does not mean you don't move it. You move it or direct it at the plane line via the hands (always both aiming and thrust).
Hip action that is not guided by the hands most certainly may move the hands off plane (too little or too much slide). Certainly, you can train the pivot to be nearly correct all the time - but why in the world take the chance? Get the correct pivot all the time by moving the hands, and letting the pivot respond. (note immediate response of the pivot that can indeed produce delayed hip action). I'm not picturing a movement of the hands, then a while later, movement of the hips - the action is an immediate response by the pivot.
5-0 "The hands are the 'Command Post' for all feel processing. As the stroke proceeds they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to the club "(meaning all other aspects of the stroke). Hands dictate, if the hands dictate, all other aspects can only respond.
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