First of all, I'm not a big fan of the term "uncock right forearm from the top."
Drive the hands to the plane line (however slight at the start down), yes.
Certainly, the hands don't need to move before the pivot can function. But this leads to at least tempoary control by the pivot (has an effect of the hand position). Always keep hand postion (through hand control) in relation to plane line.
With concentration first on Hula Hula, and not on hands, Hula Hula will influence the hands (have control over hands - opposite of hand-controlled).
Clubhead lag - the secret of golf calls for all out concentration on the hands, at all times. Stop creating pressure with the hands and you will surely have over the top. Hips lead the soulders. Hands lead the downswing because they are able to maintain relationship to plane line, not the hips. Lag pressure enables a controlling of the direction of the clubhead (tracing the plane line).
Take over downstroke sequence - sequence that the action of the hands control (by maintaining clubhead lag pressure).
You miss the point about Hula Hula- the hips move without the shoulders moving. If the shoulders don’t move – How can the hands be moved by them? They can’t. HULA HULA only moves the hips - nothing else. Please get that point correct. Independent movement from shoulders. Let the Hands grip the club at this point.
I spoke of PIVIOT LAG - I didn't talk about Clubhead Lag. You load Accumulator Lag on the backstroke. Crank start the Downstroke by loading Pivot Lag – at least according to Homer Kelley. Only now can Clubhead Lag PRESSURE be obtained. You don’t order it, you don’t think it. You load it. You load that Clubhead Lag PRESSURE (different from hands ahead of clubhead alignment which most the world only sees as Lag) only by loading your Accumulators and Pivot Lag. And Lag Pressure is inert- you don’t let the hands move it. Accumulators move them to prevent throw-away
The Pivot Lag is the crank of the “gear train”, the explosion of the launching pad. It is part of Educated Hands. Educate them. Get away from a pivot control take-away (shoulder turn and standard hip action) and use a Right Forearm Take-away. Remember the Magic? The gear train sequentially drags its preceding Component. And you say this is pivot control? Homer was wrong I guess. Once the Hands are Educated- they are Clamps with sensors.
I find that many are afraid to pivot because of the Hands control the Pivot axiom fearing that they are now pivot control- baloney. If you don’t pivot, throw darts.
One last point you don't see- the hip action doesn't move the hands off the incline plane. Hula Hula doesn't create a hip/Hand relationship. I'm afraid you misunderstood the word -lead. Lead in this context only means “ahead of- or comes before.” It does not mean steer or bring in a line.
Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?
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Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?
Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.
In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.
But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.
No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.
Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.
In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.
But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.
No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.
Hmmmmmm.....I must be confused....the only difference between 10-15-A and 10-15-B is the backstroke.
The interesting thing about your comment regarding the issue with the student and pivot controlled hands.....it appears the student didn't give you all of the information to why Tommy would have made such a suggestion. I know exactly why....it's in the book and I have Tomasello discussing it on cassette tape. I think if you knew the true reason you would eat your words regarding the comment, "an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time"...standard hip, delayed hip, pivot controlled hands, hands controlled pivot.....Tommy's kept his hands on the straight line delivery path. BOTTOM LINE. That means only one thing, his mind were in his hands (that's the basis for hand controlled pivot). They had to be or a true standard hip action would generate an angled delivery path. My guess is the student your referencing had problems keeping his/her arms on plane.
Without Tommy here to defend his position....this is all pot shots. I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 10:56 PM.
I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.
DG
You are sure? Evidence?
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The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
During my three day school, Tomasello made references to Homer looking down. While teaching me the magic of the right forearm.....Tommy made the comment, I know Homer's looking down and saying, yes, it can be that easy.
I figure if Homer was looking down in 1993, I'm pretty sure they're both looking down now in between golf shots and getting a kick out of all this non-sense surrounding the little yellow book.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-30-2007 at 10:57 PM.
BTW, HULA HULA is a Component 14 concept.....not a component 15 concept. See 7-14. I see no issue with the Hula Hula and what Tomasello said about there being no seperation between the hips and shoulders....as 7-14 says....independent but coordinated.
Debating TGM is starting to feel good again.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 05-31-2007 at 12:08 AM.
During my three day school, Tomasello made references to Homer looking down. While teaching me the magic of the right forearm.....Tommy made the comment, I know Homer's looking down and saying, yes, it can be that easy.
I figure if Homer was looking down in 1993, I'm pretty they're both looking down now in between golf shots and getting a kick out of all this non-sense surounding the little yellow book.
DG
Pretty creepy bringing up TT and HK that way. Dude- tell a pill.
Here are a few things Homer wrote about the Pivot, Lag and stroke sequence. It differs from some beliefs posted above by others- I guess I just misinterpret again.
8. Hip Slide starts the down swing. (from a stroke sequence list)
Keep your body ahead of your hands and your hands ahead of the club. (that is one leading the other the right order.)
Educated Hands are those that can feel the resistance of motion --
CLUBHEAD lag. (that happens when fully loaded- Pivot and Accumulator Lag)
5. Improve one step at a time, start with the pivot. (that important, it is , yes)
Hula Hula - This flexibility allows the right forearm to remain on
plane and keeps the shoulder motion and hip motion independent. Keep these (2) separate. (not what DG reports and see SEC- it allows the right forearm magic to remain on plane- that is what the Man said- no me)
A sharp Backstroke Turn, a Downstroke Hip Slide only, (before the Arm Motion begins) encourages "On Plane" Pivot alignments.
So its - Turn, Slide, Swing. (lets see- a RFT, then a DS Hip Slide BEFORE Arm Motion begins to encourage ON PLANE Pivot alignments- Geez that Homer was a rebel. DG says no way. )
Careful:
Aiming Point - At the Top of the Backstroke - even at the End -
mentally construct a line from the Hands to the Aiming Point. Let a
careful Downstroke Pivot move the Hands precisely along this line
they will "feel" as though they remain at the top of the Stroke. Don't question that Feel - just sustain (monitor) it, all ready for Release at the preselected Release Point. Drive the Hands (Clubhead Feel) "down the line" until both arms are straight, NO QUITTING! This procedure merely utilizes a long used method for drawing freehand straight lines between two points. Using the Clubshaft as the pencil is an effective equivalent.
(Holy Fudge- Downstroke Pivot moves the Hands- WTF is Homer doing here. Okay it is a well trained and fairly careful Downstroke Pivot but move the Hands?? And they will ‘feel’ like they remained at the top- question not- just sustain and monitor the “it” and get ready for release and then drive the Hands in a down the line until both are straight? Homer, what are you saying? That the Hands are clamps before release?)
You miss the point about Hula Hula- the hips move without the shoulders moving. If the shoulders don’t move – How can the hands be moved by them? They can’t. HULA HULA only moves the hips - nothing else. Please get that point correct. Independent movement from shoulders. Let the Hands grip the club at this point.
I spoke of PIVIOT LAG - I didn't talk about Clubhead Lag. You load Accumulator Lag on the backstroke. Crank start the Downstroke by loading Pivot Lag – at least according to Homer Kelley. Only now can Clubhead Lag PRESSURE be obtained. You don’t order it, you don’t think it. You load it. You load that Clubhead Lag PRESSURE (different from hands ahead of clubhead alignment which most the world only sees as Lag) only by loading your Accumulators and Pivot Lag. And Lag Pressure is inert- you don’t let the hands move it. Accumulators move them to prevent throw-away
The Pivot Lag is the crank of the “gear train”, the explosion of the launching pad. It is part of Educated Hands. Educate them. Get away from a pivot control take-away (shoulder turn and standard hip action) and use a Right Forearm Take-away. Remember the Magic? The gear train sequentially drags its preceding Component. And you say this is pivot control? Homer was wrong I guess. Once the Hands are Educated- they are Clamps with sensors.
I find that many are afraid to pivot because of the Hands control the Pivot axiom fearing that they are now pivot control- baloney. If you don’t pivot, throw darts.
One last point you don't see- the hip action doesn't move the hands off the incline plane. Hula Hula doesn't create a hip/Hand relationship. I'm afraid you misunderstood the word -lead. Lead in this context only means “ahead of- or comes before.” It does not mean steer or bring in a line.
You underestimate your Hands.
In swinging, lag pressure is initially obtained by "throwing" the Club against the Lag Pressure point at the top for drag loading (or with start down motion for Float Loading). I don't think initial club head lag, or the club head's resistance to motion, is established "only by loading accumulators and pivot lag" Just hold a club up, the hands can feel the dead weight of the club head. Just because something is inert does not mean you don't move it. You move it or direct it at the plane line via the hands (always both aiming and thrust).
Hip action that is not guided by the hands most certainly may move the hands off plane (too little or too much slide). Certainly, you can train the pivot to be nearly correct all the time - but why in the world take the chance? Get the correct pivot all the time by moving the hands, and letting the pivot respond. (note immediate response of the pivot that can indeed produce delayed hip action). I'm not picturing a movement of the hands, then a while later, movement of the hips - the action is an immediate response by the pivot.
5-0 "The hands are the 'Command Post' for all feel processing. As the stroke proceeds they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to the club "(meaning all other aspects of the stroke). Hands dictate, if the hands dictate, all other aspects can only respond.
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