impact on TSP

[KevCarter]

Thanks again Kev,

Why do you think that using more #3 doesn't result in distance? I know what #2 and #3 are but I think I'm confused as to their usage with a tsp straight line delivery.

I think the opposite mcgolf, I just didn't state it very well. While some pics show Brian getting close to the elbow plane at impact, I think he is closer to the TSP than most, resulting in a little less #3 than those with lower hands at impact... Make a little more sense? OB has posted some great pics of Brian's plane, but they are on my home computer...

Kevin

[Daryl]

I'm wondering about some pros and cons to the downswing being on the TSP.. including impact. Are there any specific components or accumulator sequences that would be necessary?

not sure where this can go but a little discussion on it might trigger a few questions. thanks

You should read my Book, "1001 Problems with the Elbow Plane".

Consider this:

1. Normally, the Elbow Plane requires a Delivery Path Shift. You can (but almost impossible) Trace the Plane Line after the Shift. Until then, no tracing. But this is overshadowed by a bigger problem. Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane are different until Release. That means while the Hands trace one path, the Clubhead is tracing another. Elbow Plane Golfers need to find "The Slot" or "Groove". With the TSP, the Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane share the same Angle throughout the Downstroke and Impact.
   
   
2. Shallower Planes require the Left Arm to move away from the Chest earlier than Steeper Planes. The Shallower the Plane, the Earlier the Release. Early Release is a Cause of Throwaway. Therefore, Shallow Swing Planes Cause Throwaway. An Elbow Plane is a Shallow Plane, therefore the Elbow Plane Causes Throwaway.
   
   
3. Elbow Planes are notoriously Pivot Controlled Hands Procedures. This means that the #3 or #2 PP trace the Pivots Rotation, not the Plane Line.
   
   
4. Elbow Planes rely on Pivot Speed. TSP relies on Downstroke Acceleration Sequence.

[12 piece bucket]

You should read my Book, "1001 Problems with the Elbow Plane".

Consider this:

1. Normally, the Elbow Plane requires a Delivery Path Shift. You can (but almost impossible) Trace the Plane Line after the Shift. Until then, no tracing. But this is overshadowed by a bigger problem. Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane are different until Release. That means while the Hands trace one path, the Clubhead is tracing another. Elbow Plane Golfers need to find "The Slot" or "Groove". With the TSP, the Hand Path and Clubshaft Plane share the same Angle throughout the Downstroke and Impact.
   
   can you show me a golfer that really gets on the TSP at impact? Most golfers who play at the highest levels are on the elbow plane . . . do you have an explanation for why they do such a thing?
   
2. Shallower Planes require the Left Arm to move away from the Chest earlier than Steeper Planes. The Shallower the Plane, the Earlier the Release. Early Release is a Cause of Throwaway. Therefore, Shallow Swing Planes Cause Throwaway. An Elbow Plane is a Shallow Plane, therefore the Elbow Plane Causes Throwaway.
   Why would the left arm moving away from the chest be a problem? Is not the release sequence 4-1-2-3? Is this not a natural occurrence? Why would you want to delay #4? Could this not cause a Bob?
   
3. Elbow Planes are notoriously Pivot Controlled Hands Procedures. This means that the #3 or #2 PP trace the Pivots Rotation, not the Plane Line.
   What does this mean?
   
4. Elbow Planes rely on Pivot Speed. TSP relies on Downstroke Acceleration Sequence.
   
   is the downstroke acceleration sequence not dependent upon pivot speed . . . massive rotor?

Oh boy . . . here we go . . . .

[EdZ]

Oh boy . . . here we go . . . .

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

[12 piece bucket]

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

Ed . . . why do you think there is more accuracy inherent in the TSP? Not sure I'm ready to buy in . . . interested to hear your rationale.

[EdZ]

Ed . . . why do you think there is more accuracy inherent in the TSP? Not sure I'm ready to buy in . . . interested to hear your rationale.

The steeper the plane, the less potential sidespin (within the limits of the clubs designed lie angle).

In an ideal application for accuracy (not a human, but a mechanical machine), the plane would be verticle, with exactly the right alignments (ball at proper low point etc).

Of course that assumes a club designed differently (a 90 degree lie angle).

In an ideal application for power, the plane would be horizontal, with exactly the right alignments for ball position. (for those being picky, I suppose you would have to account for gravity's downward pull)

If you hold a club out in front of you, arms straight out in front of the chest and make a baseball swing, you have a more rotational motion, more potential power, but less potential accuracy (less margin for error in ball position and clubface alignment). Lots of #3, very little #2.

If you do the same thing, but swing up/down like an axe, you'd have great potential for accuracy, but power variation might be more difficult (less margin for error in angle of attack/spin). Lots of #2, but little #3.

Mechanically speaking, the best plane angle would be 45 degrees for all shots - to give the most margin for error in power and accuracy.

Of course all of the above must consider the human machine, and the club's design.

[Daryl]

You guys might think I'm crazy but I'm not.


Accuracy depends on Hinging the Primary Lever; the Left Arm Wedge.

There is no such thing as a Left Arm Wedge on a Primary Lever using the Elbow Plane. The Primary Lever is weak at best. Always leads to throwaway.

[12 piece bucket]

The steeper the plane, the less potential sidespin (within the limits of the clubs designed lie angle).

I think you are making some assumptions here about the rate of rotation of the face though. You of course are very aware of this but this is all with the assumption that the face and path are "matching" with in reason to project the ball to the target. My point with the elbow plane (which most great players end up on) is it is the ideal blend of power and accuracy. Power as you say below and also the rate of rotation is slower due to the #3 requirements.

In an ideal application for accuracy (not a human, but a mechanical machine), the plane would be verticle, with exactly the right alignments (ball at proper low point etc).
assuming the face isn't slinging around like a screen doe in a tornado.
Of course that assumes a club designed differently (a 90 degree lie angle).

In an ideal application for power, the plane would be horizontal, with exactly the right alignments for ball position. (for those being picky, I suppose you would have to account for gravity's downward pull)

Maybe . . . could there be a relationship with the "axis of rotation" that overrides what basic plane is being used?

If you hold a club out in front of you, arms straight out in front of the chest and make a baseball swing, you have a more rotational motion, more potential power, but less potential accuracy (less margin for error in ball position and clubface alignment). Lots of #3, very little #2.



If you do the same thing, but swing up/down like an axe, you'd have great potential for accuracy, but power variation might be more difficult (less margin for error in angle of attack/spin). Lots of #2, but little #3.

Mechanically speaking, the best plane angle would be 45 degrees for all shots - to give the most margin for error in power and accuracy.

45 to what? The ground? Spine? Axis?

Of course all of the above must consider the human machine, and the club's design.

Questions/Queries above . . . Thanks for the response . . . interesting discussion. Not sure I'm on board but good stuff to hash out.

[KevCarter]

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

I agree, that's why I believe YODA teaches Standard shoulder turn which is on plane on the downstroke.

10-13-A STANDARD
This is dual application of the Flat (-B below) Backstroke and On Plane (-D below) Down-stroke Shoulder Turn.

In my opinion, the flat backstroke shoulder turn is wonderfully compatible with the MacDonald drills.

Kevin

[slicer mcgolf]

TSP limits the amount you can load PP#4, which takes some 'mass' out of the force created and lessens #3's transfer power.

Agreed that it is easier to master (a left hand karate chop to plane, focused on #2).

In a nutshell, TSP is less powerful, but more accurate.

Kev - a flat downstroke turn creates too much 'out', and makes it difficult to stay on plane.

If running down this plane can limit loading pp4, I'm assuming that kinetic link is affected (weaker) and the stroke must rely on acc1 to create speed.