Bending the Plane

[Daryl]

Well, I agree that the TSP isn't for everyone. I also agree that the Elbow Plane is more natural although I think that Homer's use of the word unconscious meant "without consideration".

But release motions need to occur on the same delivery line or else the clubhead orbit becomes 3 dimensional. So, those with Hand paths not matching the Clubshaft plane or vice-a-versa, will need some mechanism to arrive at impact without bending the delivery line.

Ben Doyle has suggested that the Plane might be concave. I haven't found much to support that but I find lots of ways golfers get-around the problem.

That's a problem that anyone with a downstroke plane shift must resolve (Hand paths not matching the Clubshaft plane). "Plane Shifts are Hazardous".

But anyone with Hand paths matching the Clubshaft plane can use a Flat Left Wrist Throughout the Stroke and a TSP offers that and more.

Most of my video of Hogan's swing shows that he mastered getting the Clubshaft On plane at the end of startdown, yet he still used the Hogan Swivel where a Flat Left Wrist would work perfectly well. With Shorter clubs he didn't do as well so maybe he figured keeping it for all strokes was better than forgetting to use it on shorter length clubs.

[O.B.Left]

But release motions need to occur on the same delivery line or else the clubhead orbit becomes 3 dimensional. So, those with Hand paths not matching the Clubshaft plane or vice-a-versa, will need some mechanism to arrive at impact without bending the delivery line.

Where does Homer mention that the Hand Path (Delivery Path) must match the Clubshaft Plane? Assuming one is using the TSP the Hands and the clubshaft travel this plane for instance no? If you are tracing.

While he recommends using a bench or rail for demonstrative purposes he doesnt preclude a plane shift during Release.

4-D-0 RELEASE MOTIONS This term refers to the Release of Accumulators #2 during either half of the Release Motion. etc

It is mandatory that there is no break or bend in the Delivery Line direction during either half of the Release Motion. Both halves, as well as, the Release and Finish Roll (2-G), must be executed on the same Delivery Line (2-J-3) – On Line or Cross Line, but not both. Construct an Inclined Plane such as shown in 10-5, or find a low bench, fence rail – or anything providing the Clubshaft with a straight edge or flat surface – and swing the Clubshaft back and forth along that edge or surface while executing the above Wrist and Hand Motions until you thoroughly understand their relation to 10-5. Study 2-N very carefully. That is why item 12-3-22 is capitalized. Study 3-F-6.

Remember a flat plane has a straight baseline. A circle is two dimensional and can lie on a flat plane. If the Plane Line loses it straightness the Clubhead Orbit becomes three dimensional and precision vanishes.

Ben Doyle has suggested that the Plane might be concave. I haven't found much to support that but I find lots of ways golfers get-around the problem.

OK I think I get you, now. The geometry is tuff. I have it on good authority that you can with great effort seek to understand it or you can merely trace a straight line Base Line and you'll be ok. A concave plane is not a plane, not a flat plane and therefore wouldnt have a straight line base line. So in fact youd be tracing a new base line or lines and by definition you'd have a bent plane line.

The geometry is confusing but for a flat plane ,that shifts angles, the straight line base line stays the same, the club rides the plane with one end or the other pointing at the base line BUT ASSUMING A SHIFT THE HAND PATH, DELIVERY PATH IS NOT A STRAIGHT LINE. See 10-23-B, C and D. Each photo of Dianne in 10-23-B #1, 2, 3 has her club pointed at the straight line base line. Her Hand Path running down plane, her club following and doing likewise.

That's a problem that anyone with a downstroke plane shift must resolve (Hand paths not matching the Clubshaft plane). "Plane Shifts are Hazardous".

Shifting your weight is hazardous. Going to End instead of Top is hazardous. Homer used that Hazardous sentence in connection with choosing a Plane Angle higher than the TSP, it requiring a shift back to the TSP before Startdown. That is hazardous, but still good enough to win many a major championship.

But anyone with Hand paths matching the Clubshaft plane can use a Flat Left Wrist Throughout the Stroke and a TSP offers that and more.

You're going to have send a diagram on what this relationship means to you. Where is this in the book? What do you mean by clubshaft plane here? Look at Dianne in those photos, her hands and her clubshaft are traveling the same plane angles as she shifts. Elbow, TSP, Elbow, Triple Shift, 10-23-B Angled Line.

Shift'n isnt a bad thing. Not at all.

[Daryl]

Where does Homer mention that the Hand Path (Delivery Path) must match the Clubshaft Plane? Assuming one is using the TSP the Hands and the clubshaft travel this plane for instance no? If you are tracing.

You may know the concept by its Given Name. “Left Arm Flying Wedge”

While he recommends using a bench or rail for demonstrative purposes he doesnt preclude a plane shift during Release.

It isn’t the Plane shifting but the risk of the 3 dimensional Clubhead orbit resulting from a shift not properly compensated.

OK I think I get you, now. The geometry is tuff. I have it on good authority that you can with great effort seek to understand it or you can merely trace a straight line Base Line and you'll be ok. A concave plane is not a plane, not a flat plane and therefore wouldnt have a straight line base line. So in fact youd be tracing a new base line or lines and by definition you'd have a bent plane line.

Wow. Great thinking. That got by me.

The geometry is confusing but for a flat plane ,that shifts angles, the straight line base line stays the same, the club rides the plane with one end or the other pointing at the base line BUT ASSUMING A SHIFT THE HAND PATH, DELIVERY PATH IS NOT A STRAIGHT LINE. See 10-23-B, C and D. Each photo of Dian in 10-23-B #1, 2, 3 has her club pointed at the straight line base line. Her Hand Path running down plane, her club following and doing likewise.

For a Swinger to uncock on the left arm wedge when its delivery line is not the plane line where the ball sits, will require taking the Clubhead out of orbit to reach the ball. Additionally, not executing the “Roll” at the Hinge, will take the Clubhead out of Orbit.

Shifting your weight is hazardous. Going to End instead of Top is hazardous. Homer used that Hazardous sentence in connection with choosing a Plane Angle higher than the TSP, it requiring a shift back to the TSP before Startdown. That is hazardous, but still good enough to win many a major championship.

And Country Club Championships as well. IMHO, “Hazarous” is code for “find a compensation”.

You're going to have send a diagram on what this relationship means to you. Where is this in the book? What do you mean by clubshaft plane here? Look at Dianne in those photos, her hands and her clubshaft are traveling the same plane angles as she shifts.

I see the misunderstanding. Homer is providing photographic aid to help people understand Plane Shifts. Plane Shifts don’t cause Bent Delivery Lines, uncocking off plane or rolling off plane does. So, if you’re uncocking on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge, but the Left Arm Wedge is not on the Impact Shaft Plane, then you’ll be uncocking off plane. If a Swinger with a sequenced release doesn’t “Roll” at the Hinge, then he’ll “Roll” off plane.

If your Left Arm is pointing to the ground 12” inside the Plane line, and you uncock on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge (left arm wedge has a flat left wrist), how is the Clubhead going to reach the Plane Line?

This boils down to the Left Arm Wedge. The Wedge has a Flat Left Wrist. At release, if the Left Arm Wedge is On Plane and when you Uncock the Left Wrist, the Clubhead path is On Plane headed toward the delivery line, then...... But what if you Lower your left hand to the Elbow Plane (about 6"). Can the clubshaft uncock toward the delivery line and left arm wedge plane with a flat left wrist at the same time?

It is mandatory that there is no break or bend in the Delivery Line direction during either half of the Release Motion. Both halves, as well as, the Release and Finish Roll (2-G), must be executed on the same Delivery Line (2-J-3) – On Line or Cross Line, but not both.

I have probably taken a simple concept and made it complicated.

[O.B.Left]

It is mandatory that there is no break or bend in the Delivery Line direction during either half of the Release Motion. Both halves, as well as, the Release and Finish Roll (2-G), must be executed on the same Delivery Line (2-J-3) – On Line or Cross Line, but not both.

Both halves being release of #2 and #3, Delivery Line referring to clubhead. Arc of Approach or Angle of Approach.

The Left Arm is not on the Inclined Plane (see photo 10-13-D #2) , unless #3 angle is zeroed either by gripping the club along the life line as in putting or when the left wrist is fully uncocked, post impact. The Left Arm is on the Plane of the Left Arm Flying wedge however. The vertical plane, the plane of the left wrist cock and uncock. The Left Wrist is geometrically flat only, not literally flat. But Cocking and Uncocking of the Left Wrist seems to me to be done on the Inclined Plane.

I realize the inconsistency here. Its still in the incubator for me. I can only say that the cocking and uncocking is along the Inclined Plane and at whatever Plane Angle that may be, given shifting. Meaning shifts dont make plain line compliance, tracing or on line release difficult to my mind.

I realize that given this riddle you have chosen the other way round. The uncocking is along the plane of the LFFW. Meaning the left hand is not on the inclined plane and neither is the clubshaft, nor any release motions.

My head hurts again. But Im a Hitter, or a Swinger with thoughts primarily of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its frozen right hand staying on the plane the right wrist bend at all times and the pp#3 tracing. Its easier on my brain.

[Daryl]

Both halves being release of #2 and #3, Delivery Line referring to clubhead. Arc of Approach or Angle of Approach.

2-J-3 VISUAL EQUIVALENTS Delivery Paths (7-23) guide the Hands but Delivery Lines are needed to guide the Clubhead and the Right Forearm (5-0). The true geometric Plane Line is the Basic Delivery Line.

The Left Arm is not on the Inclined Plane (see photo 10-13-D #2) , unless #3 angle is zeroed either by gripping the club along the life line as in putting or when the left wrist is fully uncocked, post impact. The Left Arm is on the Plane of the Left Arm Flying wedge however. The vertical plane, the plane of the left wrist cock and uncock. The Left Wrist is geometrically flat only, not literally flat. But Cocking and Uncocking of the Left Wrist seems to me to be done on the Inclined Plane.

Photo 10-13-D #2: The Left Arm is not on the Inclined Plane and Neither is the Flat Left Wrist. This is because the Shoulders and Arms are Turned to the Plane. But the Clubshaft is On Plane.

This is about Release Motions and concerns the Left Arm Wedge Location and Angle where Release is Concerned.

I realize the inconsistency here. Its still in the incubator for me. I can only say that the cocking and uncocking is along the Inclined Plane and at whatever Plane Angle that may be, given shifting. Meaning shifts dont make plain line compliance, tracing or on line release difficult to my mind.

You can't win tournaments if you bend the delivery line. I'm serious. You don't have a problem with bending the plane line. But do you know what you do that solves the problem?

In the above paragraph, you said that "Cocking and Uncocking is along the Inclined Plane". That's exactly as it should be except replace "Plane" with "Delivery Line".

So, for swingers that have swiveled to plane on the backstroke, you would also agree that if your Left Arm pointed inside the Plane Line (Left Arm Wedge) then you need to Bend your Left Wrist so that your Clubshaft will be on plane when you Cock and Uncock?

Hitters using a Single wrist action downstroke don't have this problem. .......... But a Single Wrist Action On Plane Release is a mind numbing experience to visualize and execute without a Plane Board for training. AND, you can't "Swing" a Single Wrist Action On Plane Release (not without other problems). It requires Right Arm Thrust down the Angle of Approach. ..........Hmm? Maybe that's the simplest procedure of all. ...... Imagine the complexity of holding the left wrist vertical and yet keeping the shaft on plane during release.

I realize that given this riddle you have chosen the other way round. The uncocking is along the plane of the LFFW. Meaning the left hand is not on the inclined plane and neither is the clubshaft, nor any release motions.

I say that Cocking and Uncocking should be executed on the Plane of the Left Arm Wedge with a Flat Left Wrist, as does TGM. I also say that the TSP simplifies the procedure because the flat left wrist exists throughout the swing. I also say that for swingers not using the TSP, need a more complex way of uncocking on plane so as not to bend the delivery line during the first half of the release sequence. And I say that Bending the Left wrist is the "more complex way". I also say that it's perfectly suitable and has been adopted and proven in competition.

My head hurts again.

I keep a bottle of Advil on my desk.

But Im a Hitter, or a Swinger with thoughts primarily of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge and its frozen right hand staying on the plane the right wrist bend at all times and the pp#3 tracing. Its easier on my brain.

I don't think that Hitters have this same problem. As long as a Hitter thrusts the right forearm down the Angle of Approach, and uses a Single Wrist Action Downstroke, bending the delivery line shouldn't be an issue once a level of proficiency is reached. In this regard, Hitting is a superior procedure because no matter what the plane angle, right forearm thrust uncocks the flat left wrist On Plane. I hate to admit it.

More trade-offs. Hit or Swing.

[O.B.Left]

Photo 10-13-D #2: The Left Arm is not on the Inclined Plane and Neither is the Flat Left Wrist. This is because the Shoulders and Arms are Turned to the Plane. But the Clubshaft is On Plane.

This is about Release Motions and concerns the Left Arm Wedge Location and Angle where Release is Concerned.

Photo 10-13-D #2 clearly shows the Left Arm above plane and the Left Hand and club shaft laying flat to the Inclined Plane. A slight cup in the wrist, consistent with the cup associated with vertical left wrist cocking given a 10-2-B Strong Single Action Grip. Flat is not literally flat but geometrically flat. Search function.

You can't win tournaments if you bend the delivery line. I'm serious. You don't have a problem with bending the plane line. But do you know what you do that solves the problem?

Yes, I do. I trace a straight line base line , Arc of Approach or cover the Angle of Approach. I also attach some lasers to both ends of a club and see whats going on. I can shift and have pretty straight lines no problem. It isnt that hard.

So, for swingers that have swiveled to plane on the backstroke, you would also agree that if your Left Arm pointed inside the Plane Line (Left Arm Wedge) then you need to Bend your Left Wrist so that your Clubshaft will be on plane when you Cock and Uncock?

Or is this bend just the plane of the left wrist cock? Try cocking a 10-2-B vertically with your left arm held straight in front of you. Cups right? It must.

I admit there is some fog around the geometry of the plane of the left wrist cock and the on plane release motions for me. I do. You cant cock the left wrist vertically along the plane of the left arm flying wedge and be on plane when the left arm isnt on plane, I dont think. But I know from my own experience that you dont need to manipulate the left wrist to do so (which is per Homer a clubface manipulation as opposed to a shaft plane manipulation as you suggest). Nor do you need to zero out #3 and swing on a super steep, what you call a TSP but which looks more like a Left Shoulder Plane to have release motions on plane and straight line base line compliant. This I know from experience although I do get the geometric reason for your assertion.

Is anyone listening to this or is it just you and me? What were we talking about again? After we knock this doozer off I have a few questions about the Angle Of Approach.

[Daryl]

Obviously, we failed to change each others mind. Perhaps if I were more knowledgeable or used video I could have explained my thoughts more clearly.

I'm convinced that Uncocking and Rolling on the same delivery Line is a problem for most Golfers. I thought that Uncocking off-plane was an easy point to illustrate. Once one learns to Uncock on plane, he needs to understand how to roll on the same delivery line. That's more difficult to illustrate and explain even though it seems completely clear to me.

I think that Hitters and Swingers have different Problems and maybe this is one that Hitters don't have.

[BerntR]

Is anyone listening to this or is it just you and me?

I'm listening.

Am curious to see where this goes.

Plane bending must imply some form of steering. Not in the usual golf sense perhaps. But still. Linear forces that partly drive the club away from the ball. Then linear that partly works in another direction than the object they are applied on. Forces to correct the offset created earlier in the stroke. Some work will be done that is counterproctive in a strict geometrical sense in the early part of the downstroke. And some of the linear forces will be "wasted" on bending the plane, which isn't really work in a Newtonian sense and which will not energize the clubhead either.

But maybe there is some good physiological justification for it still.