I really didn't follow any of that, Innercityteacher.
But I did not throw out ONE "dig" at TGM. NOT ONE.
I asked a simple question seeking to clarify an aspect of the book. Unfortunately, simple answers never seem to come back. Often, "answers" are verbatim quoting from the book. But if I was totally clear on what the book says, I wouldn't be asking the question. So I took the liberty of explaining my "language", and asked if someone would be kind enough to explain it to me using terms that I am more familiar with. Look, I teach for a living. I pride myself on being able to explain things in a multitude of different ways. In ways a 6th grader could understand, if necessary. And if I understood the book as well as Homer himself, that's what I'd be doing for others.
Nobody can explain D-Plane in a manner a 6th grader can understand. Look at all the videos, and all the attempts at it. In a recent interview on GOTHAM blog with Ralph Perez, Manzella said "I can't really explain it." or something to that effect.
Homer did a great job in saying:
"The direction of the ball will always be practically at right angles to the Clubface and square to the leading edge of the Clubface at separation"
That works for me and solved the problem of being taught by the PGA all those years that the ball started on the path...
For myself, I will define practically as the majority. That seems to work with both TrackMan and D-Plane and is explainable to a 2nd grader.
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I understand science has also proven that it is face angle at the point where the ball is fully compressed, not separation.
So what?
I noticed some bonehead posted when he learned that he completely changed his teaching philosophy the next day.
Give me a break.
I'm learning G.O.L.F. I don't give a crap about learning to win a debate. I'm so tired of this silly bickering in an attempt to do just that. If you want to learn about The Golfing Machine and Lynn Blake's ideas on it's application, you are in the right place. If you want to learn D-Plane and "modern science", you probably aren't.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
This summer, while there were a summer golf scool for kids at our club, I was hitting balls next to a couple of kids, around the age of 13. One of them had a pretty good motion but he was slicing the ball excessively (which isn't unusual after 3 days of golf). I asked him if he knew what caused the slice. He didn't. Then I explained to him how side spin worked and how the clubface angle and the club path angle affected where the ball started and ended. "Have you played soccer?". "Yes". "Do you know how to kick a curved ball then?" "Yes." "Well, it's the same thing with a golf club basically. "The ball starts close to where the face points bla-bla-bla ".
After absorbing my 90 seconds D-plane explanation the kid proceeded to hit 8 yard draws straight down the middle. I couldn't believe my eyes
This summer, while there were a summer golf scool for kids at our club, I was hitting balls next to a couple of kids, around the age of 13. One of them had a pretty good motion but he was slicing the ball excessively (which isn't unusual after 3 days of golf). I asked him if he knew what caused the slice. He didn't. Then I explained to him how side spin worked and how the clubface angle and the club path angle affected where the ball started and ended. "Have you played soccer?". "Yes". "Do you know how to kick a curved ball then?" "Yes." "Well, it's the same thing with a golf club basically. "The ball starts close to where the face points bla-bla-bla ".
After absorbing my 90 seconds D-plane explanation the kid proceeded to hit 8 yard draws straight down the middle. I couldn't believe my eyes
Thanks very much BerntR!
I know you have a very scientific mind, and I needed someone like you to verify my simplistic explanation. Now I KNOW I'm on the right track!
I put together booklets full of TGM and other golf stuff I learn around the web. There are some excellent visuals that really help with my explanations, and several you can sort of mix and match based upon who you are working with. We have all seen all of them...
Here is another simple explanation from a friend on the Champions Tour. He is a TGM afficionado along with studying the new science as it relates to his own swing. He says it is so different out there right now because the new balls and clubs don't want to curve, they just want to go straight. Here is what he boiled it down to and it is working great for him in the real world:
D-PLANE & BALL FLIGHT LAWS SIMPLIFIED
• Ball starts closer to face and curves away from path
• Hit the ball on the inside to draw
• Hit the ball in the center for straight ball
• Hit the ball on the outside for fade
He says the 2011 Pro V is even straighter than in 2010! He now trys to go with a straight ball every swing and he used to work it around the course as Hogan and all the great players used to...
BTW, like myself, he LOVES the swing of YODA and when we talk golf swing that is the model we refer to.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
............He says the 2011 Pro V is even straighter than in 2010! He now trys to go with a straight ball every swing and he used to work it around the course as Hogan and all the great players used to...Kevin
Kevin, what do you think of that? If you don't think anything of it, then that's ok too.
Do you think Ball Makers changed the way the Ball "rolls-up" the Clubface or does it make more sense to consider a change in the resiliency of the Ball Core?
Kevin, what do you think of that? If you don't think anything of it, then that's ok too.
Do you think Ball Makers changed the way the Ball "rolls-up" the Clubface or does it make more sense to consider a change in the resiliency of the Ball Core?
I don't know what to make of it Daryl. I've played a total of 2 rounds the past 2 years. Hopefully my body will be healthier this year and I'll be able to test some of this for myself. For now I just have to trust what I learn from you and the others...
I trust what this gentleman tells me as he is experiencing it daily with both his own and his students (Tour Players) swings. He's like me, not a very scientific mind, but understands the geometry and the fact that people get different feels from proper mechanics.
As I said earlier, I'm interested in the real world application of Homer Kelley's work, and that is why I am here to learn from the best. I believe that advances in equipment may change some of Mr. Kelley's ideas as far as debating his EXACT words, but it still holds up in the real world of improving golfers...
Next someone asks what changes to try to trip me up. As I posted a couple of posts ago, direction is determined by the clubface at maximum compression rather than separation. If that is true, it invalidates a couple of words, but DOES NOT change the way we teach or perform. IMHO
What else changes? I don't know.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I agree with your friend on the Champions Tour. The Balls are getting straighter. But why? Will the Ball makers tell us? If they do, then what do you think they'd say?
I don't come here to learn about "The D Plane" or "modern science". I get that info elsewhere. I came here to better understand what Kelley meant, as I said. The question that I asked to begin this thread was about "maximum compression" and 2-C-1. I guess the kind of answer that I was looking for, which I will provide from my interpretation of the book, would go something like this.....
For maximum compression, the clubface must close, relative to the direction that it is traveling, during the impact interval. This is a horizontal hinge motion of the clubface, and is required to keep the original contact point between clubface and ball intact throughout the interval. Also, the clubface must not "lay back" during the interval, which would add loft, permitting compression to "leak" away.
Now if I were to explain D Plane to a 6th grader, I think I'd go with this.......When the clubface hits the ball, the clubface is moving on a line, and the clubface is also pointing on a line. If you take your pencil and connect those two lines with another line, that new line is called "The D Plane". Not so scary, eh?
One more.....As someone who teaches golf every day to the masses, I can attest that the "new" balls still curve. Sometimes drastically so . Initially, at least
I agree with your friend on the Champions Tour. The Balls are getting straighter. But why? Will the Ball makers tell us? If they do, then what do you think they'd say?
A wild guess from me:
They manipulate the weight distribution inside the ball so that its MOI increases: That would be a lighter core and more weight towards the surface. For a given spin rate this will give the ball more spin energy when it lands on the green. So that it can handle more turf friction before it stops spinning.
With this increased spin endurance in place the ball doesn't need to land as steep as before to have drop and stop performance on the green.
And when the ball needs less of a spin towards the sky - drop dead air flight they can reduce the air drag when the ball is in the air. And when they reduce the air drag the ball goes straighter and it doesn't spin towards heaven when you play into the wind.
. Initially, at least
Hybrid Mode
