I find Standard Hip Action to be conducive of a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. That "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship", which Lynn referred to above, can IMO easily cause the Hands to move back too low and too much inside.
That's not saying that you cannot produce wonderful Swings with Standard Hip Action. And I agree that the slackness in the Hip/Shoulder relationship seems to fit the Swinger's pattern, particularly the Dragging Clubhead Takeaway. But much more difficult to master than Delayed Hip Action.
Originally Posted by Par71
At Address or at Impact Fix (which, of course, could be one and the same if you're using Impact Address)?
Options of course...but more of an adjusted address look...if you keep your arms soft and move your body around you'll note the change in the handle location....I'd say preturn the right hip and actually pre-straighten the right knee some too...should pull the handle to the point where your hands look more address attitude than fix.
One thing to note on the angle of approach, hitting ARBITRARILY requires 10-5-e closed plane line the listing for the angle of approach procedure is the hitting basic pattern. Also par71s questions are very well pointed, AP has quite a bit of hip turn there and is going on to end.....wouldn't this require a switch to an arc of approach procedure....
Also I would agree with you par71 in that delayed hip action will help the golfer get up the plane better versus a tendency to drag it under(shoulder turn takeaway) with standard hip action along with my previous reasons I believe this to be why he recommended delayed hip action for the swingers basic pattern
Definition of arbitrary
Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
(of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.
In other words it may require it if thats what it takes to accomplish it but it does not absolutely require a closed plane line which is very minimal anyway
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
According to Tom Tomasello Standard Hip Action was suppose to be the 10-15 Hip Action for both the swinging and hitting patterns for the 7th edition. Tom assembled a complete 7th edition with Homer's notes. It appears Joe Daniels did the same thing. Tom had that revision completed by the late 80's. Tom instructed his students to change 10-15-B to 10-15-A in the book. When I studied with Tommy, I came to the lessons with delayed hip action, by the time I left (I have it on audio tape)I was learning standard hip action. Trust me, I'm definitely clearing my right hip, combined with the magic of the right forearm action, I have a very stable and reliable backswing.
I use Standard Hip Action for both swinging and hitting with equally good results. I have no desire to go back to delayed hip action. You have to go with what works, I believe Homer would be in agreement.
Great exchange going on in this thread.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 12-02-2011 at 10:13 PM.
According to Tom Tomasello Standard Hip Action was suppose to be the 10-15 Hip Action for both the swinging and hitting patterns for the 7th edition. Tom assembled a complete 7th edition with Homer's notes. It appears Joe Daniels did the same thing. Tom had that revision completed by the late 80's. Tom instructed his students to change 10-15-B to 10-15-A in the book. When I studied with Tommy, I came to the lessons with delayed hip action, by the time I left (I have it on audio tape)I was learning standard hip action. Trust me, I'm definitely clearing my right hip, combined with the magic of the right forearm action, I have a very stable and reliable backswing.
I use Standard Hip Action for both swinging and hitting with equally good results. I have no desire to go back to delayed hip action. You have to go with what works, I believe Homer would be in agreement.
Great exchange going on in this thread.
DG
great practical insight here...
As a swinger who tends to overswing, i prefer delayed hip action. It helps me set up the lag and drag in the backstroke for all components in the downstroke. I prefer the sequence to be arms, shoulders, hips, knees then feet in the backstroke. By reversing that sequence in the downstroke, this extends the swing radius to the feet, which resists impact deceleration (think of pivot lag in both directions as a kind of extensor action for the pivot).
According to Tom Tomasello Standard Hip Action was suppose to be the 10-15 Hip Action for both the swinging and hitting patterns for the 7th edition. Tom assembled a complete 7th edition with Homer's notes.
DG, I was about to ask you this before:
I seem to remember that you wrote in other threads that in the 7th edition Hip Action for the Basic Stroke Patterns had been changed from Delayed to Standard. Were you referring to that draft 7th edition that Tom Tomasello assembled, or is this really somewhere in the final 7th edition?
I seem to remember that you wrote in other threads that in the 7th edition Hip Action for the Basic Stroke Patterns had been changed from Delayed to Standard. Were you referring to that draft 7th edition that Tom Tomasello assembled, or is this really somewhere in the final 7th edition?
refer to ch. 12 of your own 7th edition IT IS NOT STANDARD
I seem to remember that you wrote in other threads that in the 7th edition Hip Action for the Basic Stroke Patterns had been changed from Delayed to Standard. Were you referring to that draft 7th edition that Tom Tomasello assembled, or is this really somewhere in the final 7th edition?
So you have ask yourself did the notes for the 7th edition say standard hip action or was that a conversation between Homer and Tomasello...and if the notes said Standard Hip Action did Joe Daniels make the decision to retain delayed hip action in the stroke patterns. Good question for Joe Daniels? I got to believe Joe Daniels and Tom Tomasello had the same set of 7th edition updates, in the 7th edition text Joe Daniels mentions 90 pages of notes and Tommy mentioned the same amount. You would have to assume that Sally Kelley probably provided Tom and Joe copies of those notes. Tom Tomasello painstakingly put those updates into a copy of the 6th edition. Tommy knew that book inside and out...
With my backswing, I'm sensing both the right hip action and the action of the hands per the straight line delivery path per the #3 pressure point. I'm hitting the ball long and straight, consistently. Why?
If I use Right Forearm Takeaway (trying to keep right arm straight, wide arc), I lose my pivot angle/waist bend, that condition is called bobbing. If I use Magic of the Right Forearm takeaway (bending or levering the right elbow at the start of the backswing) with delayed hip action that puts an excessive amount of pressure on the right elbow. The backstroke motion that Tommy taught; Magic of the Right Forearm and Standard Hip action solved all of my backswing issues. I'm swinging within myself and retaining the three most important angles.
1) Knee flex
2) Maintaining Waist Bend
3) The Right Wrist conditon (Bent and Level)
I believe this is a process an AI should be taking you through.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 12-03-2011 at 03:56 PM.
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