Downstroke shoulder lag

[stilltrying]

Stilltrying,

Regarding Feel, the lagging Arms, Hands and Club put a drag on the leading Right Shoulder, and this Feel should be sustained until the Release of the Power Package Accumulator Lag (Out-of-Line condition of the employed Power Package Components). However, just as with the Clubhead Lag (trailing Clubhead Inertia), the Pivot Lag (Lag and Drag of the Pivot Train) is never 'Released' (6-B-0). This gives the Stroke its Maximum Radius (from the Feet to the Sweetspot) and makes the Club very 'heavy' (Effective Clubhead Mass per 2-M-2-2) and much more able to resist the Deceleration Force of Impact.

Thank you Mr.Blake this last paragraph clarified a great deal for me.

[annikan skywalker]

Are you saying there is never an overtaking rate of the Pivot components...just always lagging?

[bts]

Nice description Yoda.

In fact, the Swinger's massive rotor (Pivot) needs to slow down -- not acclerating or staying at constant speed -- for Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. This is how the Left Arm gets blasted off the left side of one's chest, so Centrifugal Force can be 'set up' to work its magic. If there was constant acceleration or even constant speed of the Pivot, the Swinger would never be letting Centrifugal Force take over the Rhythm of the Downstroke and there would not be a slowing, overtaking process happening joint by joint that is necessary for Momentum Transfer.

All this is quite counter-intuitive because we think how it is possible for something to slow down to speed something else up. Maybe this is the science behind one of the cliches we often here from our friends and golf magazines: "swing easy if you want to hit it further".



I agree Yoda, but can you clarify by what you mean if Pivot Lag were to be Released?

I agree that the "massive rotor" slows down in order for the "Momentum Transfer to take place from the Body to the Arms and Hands. But, beware not to do it intentionally, which might cause early release of the "lag".

The "lag" (from the pivot to the clubhead) should be intentionally sustained as long as possible to insure the existance of "thrust" through impact for resising the "impact deceleration".

The "lag" eventually will be "thrownaway" (sometime during the swing), no matter how hard/long it is intended to be sustained. But, make sure it is intended/allowed to happen beyond (way bepond), instesd of before, impact.

[Daryl]

BTS and Tongzilla

1. Is the pivot actually slowing down? it does seem to. However, my hips still lead throughout the sroke even though during this apparent slowing-down, my arms are speading up.

2. Is the component we are talking about the "Sholder throw trigger" vs the "wrist throw"?

3. As both of you talk about these movements, I can feel them because this is what I do when I try to accentuate the #4 accumulator. The idea I have is to start down, then slow the hips (the right shoulder stays down and on plane), then energy seems to transfer from the torso to the arms. The arms speed up fast. It almost feels like I'm standing still when the ball is struck.

4. This is not my normal pattern. Normally, the right shoulder moves down and out all the way to impact.

[tongzilla]

BTS and Tongzilla

1. Is the pivot actually slowing down? it does seem to. However, my hips still lead throughout the sroke even though during this apparent slowing-down, my arms are speading up.

2. Is the component we are talking about the "Sholder throw trigger" vs the "wrist throw"?

3. As both of you talk about these movements, I can feel them because this is what I do when I try to accentuate the #4 accumulator. The idea I have is to start down, then slow the hips (the right shoulder stays down and on plane), then energy seems to transfer from the torso to the arms. The arms speed up fast. It almost feels like I'm standing still when the ball is struck.

4. This is not my normal pattern. Normally, the right shoulder moves down and out all the way to impact.

1) Yes. The Pivot slows down during the Downstroke, but you should also preserve the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1) and the consequent Lag and Drag in the Pivot Train (6-C-0).

2) The Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C) should always be used with the Wrist Throw (10-20-E). Otherwise you will be contending with Clubhead Throwaway, or a Full Sweep Release if skilfully performed with Educated Hands (10-20-A). So, start with the Shoulder Turn Throw, then finish it off with a Wrist Throw and Delivery Path Throw (10-20-D) combo to get nice Automatic Snap Release (10-24-E).

3) Even though your Pivot does and should slow down to blast that essentially inert Left Arm off, it shouldn't be a deliberate 'applying the breaks' type movement. That would be like Steering the Pivot.

4) All the Patterns Yoda and I described have the Right Shoulder 'On Plane' on the Downstroke. This is regardless of whether you're using a Shoulder Turn Throw or Shoulder Turn Thrust.

[Daryl]

No problem.

Thanks

[Triad]

1) Yes. The Pivot slows down during the Downstroke, but you should also preserve the Downstroke Release Sequence (6-M-1) and the consequent Lag and Drag in the Pivot Train (6-C-0).

2) The Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C) should always be used with the Wrist Throw (10-20-E). Otherwise you will be contending with Clubhead Throwaway, or a Full Sweep Release if skilfully performed with Educated Hands (10-20-A). So, start with the Shoulder Turn Throw, then finish it off with a Wrist Throw and Delivery Path Throw (10-20-D) combo to get nice Automatic Snap Release (10-24-E).

3) Even though your Pivot does and should slow down to blast that essentially inert Left Arm off, it shouldn't be a deliberate 'applying the breaks' type movement. That would be like Steering the Pivot.

4) All the Patterns Yoda and I described have the Right Shoulder 'On Plane' on the Downstroke. This is regardless of whether you're using a Shoulder Turn Throw or Shoulder Turn Thrust.

Tong, your points 1,2 and 3 were very clear. I lost you on point 4. Would you mind differentiating between the Shoulder Turn Throw and Shoulder turn Thrust? ST Throw = 10-20-C, ST Thrust = 10-?-? ??

10-20-C calls for a short, sharp acceleration (thrust?) of the right shoulder against the #4PP.

How are you defining a Shoulder Turn Thrust as a distinct component from the Shoulder Turn Throw. Is it a longer, more sustained thrust than the short, sharp acceleration of 10-20-C? Is this more compatible with the driving right arm of the hitters motion?

Thanks,
Triad

[tongzilla]

Tong, your points 1,2 and 3 were very clear. I lost you on point 4. Would you mind differentiating between the Shoulder Turn Throw and Shoulder turn Thrust? ST Throw = 10-20-C, ST Thrust = 10-?-? ??

10-20-C calls for a short, sharp acceleration (thrust?) of the right shoulder against the #4PP.

How are you defining a Shoulder Turn Thrust as a distinct component from the Shoulder Turn Throw. Is it a longer, more sustained thrust than the short, sharp acceleration of 10-20-C? Is this more compatible with the driving right arm of the hitters motion?

Thanks,
Triad

The Shoulder Turn Throw is a Trigger Type, whereas Shoulder Turn Thrust describes the use of the Right Shoulder to drive the Lever Assemblies and is not a Trigger Type. You need Shoulder Turn Thrust to use the Shoulder Turn Throw.

For both Hitters and Swingers, the Right Shoulder is used to overcome the initial inertia of the Clubhead during the change in direction. After this inital phase, the Hitter uses the Right Shoulder as a backstop for the Right Arm to push off. However, for the Swinger, the Right Shoulder continues to actively drive down plane against Pressure Point #4. Only for the Full Power Four Barrel Hitting Stroke does the Right Shoulder continue to be active, but it is still used by the Right Arm to push off.
Whatever you choose to do, the Right Shoulder is always leading the Hands (i.e. lagging Hands, Arm and Club -- "Pivot Lag").

[Triad]

The Shoulder Turn Throw is a Trigger Type, whereas Shoulder Turn Thrust describes the use of the Right Shoulder to drive the Lever Assemblies and is not a Trigger Type. You need Shoulder Turn Thrust to use the Shoulder Turn Throw.

For both Hitters and Swingers, the Right Shoulder is used to overcome the initial inertia of the Clubhead during the change in direction. After this inital phase, the Hitter uses the Right Shoulder as a backstop for the Right Arm to push off. However, for the Swinger, the Right Shoulder continues to actively drive down plane against Pressure Point #4. Only for the Full Power Four Barrel Hitting Stroke does the Right Shoulder continue to be active, but it is still used by the Right Arm to push off.
Whatever you choose to do, the Right Shoulder is always leading the Hands (i.e. lagging Hands, Arm and Club -- "Pivot Lag").

Thanks Tong. I have a few more questions, but it may be more appropriate to start a new thread on them. However, if you could humor me for one quick one to jump start my thought process I would appreciate it. I have always been a little blurry on the difference between Trigger Types and Release Types. My basic thought is that Trigger Types refer to the how of the accumulator release sequence whereas Release Types refer to the when/wherethey are released. That is to say that, for instance, the Wrist Throw trigger could occur at the TOP/Startdown for a Full Sweep release, or much deeper, say at Aiming Point for a Snap Release. Both procedures would be using the same Trigger Types, but at different Release Types/points. Am I on track here?
Thanks,
Triad

[tongzilla]

Thanks Tong. I have a few more questions, but it may be more appropriate to start a new thread on them. However, if you could humor me for one quick one to jump start my thought process I would appreciate it. I have always been a little blurry on the difference between Trigger Types and Release Types. My basic thought is that Trigger Types refer to the how of the accumulator release sequence whereas Release Types refer to the when/wherethey are released. That is to say that, for instance, the Wrist Throw trigger could occur at the TOP/Startdown for a Full Sweep release, or much deeper, say at Aiming Point for a Snap Release. Both procedures would be using the same Trigger Types, but at different Release Types/points. Am I on track here?
Thanks,
Triad

Yes, you are on track Triad! It's always good to keep the identities of these components separate, and deal with their interrelatedness with that in mind.
Like I said before, if you want a Snap Release (where the Release begins at the very end of the Delivery Path), there are certain Trigger Types (combinations) that are more compatible than others.