As per my redman post that is how Redman teaches the grip. Hang your left arm relaxed and grip the club without any forearm rotation in either direction.
Dave
Originally Posted by Andy R
I wonder if Azinger's left hand lays that way naturally (and is therefore a correct grip for him, I think) or he does it by choice?
As per my redman post that is how Redman teaches the grip. Hang your left arm relaxed and grip the club without any forearm rotation in either direction.
Dave
Right you are, Davel.
Paul Azinger came to John Redman's driving range in 1979 with his Left Hand Turned to Plane -- the classic super-strong grip (the thumb-forefinger "V" pointing outside the right shoulder -- and John never changed it. At that time, Paul was a freshman in junior college having a hard time making the golf team -- "I had never broken 70 and seldom broke 80 two days in a row." Three years later he was on the PGA TOUR, and eight years later, was named PGA TOUR Player of the Year.
Read all about Paul's journey and the techniques that took him to the top in John's book, John Redman's Essentials Of The Golf Swing. The 'remaindered' market for the book is very buyer-friendly at the moment: Some very valuable information is between hard covers and can be yours for only a penny -- $0.01 -- and shipping charges. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...7029824&sr=1-1
All that said, I dare say that Paul's 'hanging arm grip' would be decidedly less Turned to the right, i.e., more "neutral" (Rolled to the left). To show as many knuckles as Paul does, that left shoulder has to have a pretty severe 'anterior rotation' (a term I've learned from our own Vickie Lake). Thanks, Vickie.
Long story short (and using TGM terms for the benefit of the many members engaged in that study), what happened was that Paul brought to the table a Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D / Left Wristcocking Motion on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend) and, with John's help, learned to use his Pivot (10-12-A / Standard Action) to originate and control Clubhead Power (10-4-D / 4 Barrel). Along the way, he learned to use Angled Hinging (10-10-C / Right Palm Paddle Wheel Action and No Roll Feel) to control the Clubface Alignment through Impact (or, as John would say, "No forearm rotation and knuckles up!").
Long story short (and using TGM terms for the benefit of the many members engaged in that study), what happened was that Paul brought to the table a Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D / Left Wristcocking Motion on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend) and, with John's help, learned to use his Pivot (10-12-A / Standard Action) to originate and control Clubhead Power (10-4-D / 4 Barrel). Along the way, he learned to use Angled Hinging (10-10-C / Right Palm Paddle Wheel Action and No Roll Feel) to control the Clubface Alignment through impact (or, as John would say, "No forearm rotation and knuckles up!").
Paul Azinger came to John Redman's driving range in 1979 with his Left Hand Turned to Plane -- the classic super-strong grip (the thumb-forefinger "V" pointing outside the right shoulder -- and John never changed it. At that time, Paul was a freshman in junior college having a hard time making the golf team -- "I had never broken 70 and seldom broke 80 two days in a row." Three years later he was on the PGA TOUR, and eight years later, was named PGA TOUR Player of the Year.
Read all about Paul's journey and the techniques that took him to the top in John's book, John Redman's Essentials Of The Golf Swing. The 'remaindered' market for the book is very buyer-friendly at the moment: Some very valuable information is between hard covers and can be yours for only a penny -- $0.01 -- and shipping charges. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...7029824&sr=1-1
All that said, I dare say that Paul's 'hanging arm grip' would be decidedly less Turned to the right, i.e., more "neutral" (Rolled to the left). To show as many knuckles as Paul does, that left shoulder has to have a pretty severe 'anterior rotation' (a term I've learned from our own Vickie Lake). Thanks, Vickie.
Long story short (and using TGM terms for the benefit of the many members engaged in that study), what happened was that Paul brought to the table a Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D / Left Wristcocking Motion on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend) and, with John's help, learned to use his Pivot (10-12-A / Standard Action) to originate and control Clubhead Power (10-4-D / 4 Barrel). Along the way, he learned to use Angled Hinging (10-10-C / Right Palm Paddle Wheel Action and No Roll Feel) to control the Clubface Alignment through Impact (or, as John would say, "No forearm rotation and knuckles up!").
And the rest, as they say, is history.
Sounds like Redman helped to UNLOCK Azingers talent...a fine hitter at that.
A friend I play with has, what I now know is called, a severe 'anterior rotation'.
When his arms hang naturally, the backs of his hands are parallel to the target line. (I promise, he does have opposable thumbs.)
What do you feel would be the ideal grip for him?
I understand that PGA TOUR player Tim Clark http://www.pgatour.com/players/02/31/35/ has a similar problem. In his case, an elbow deficiciency severely limits his ability to rotate his Left forearm, so much so that, as he says, "I can't even get my change at the drive-through". In his case, he just goes with the flow and plays with the super-strong Turned Left Hand. Seems to work!
I'd have to see the situation in person, but it sounds as if your friend should do the same. By the way, there are specific exercises that can help immensely to reverse the condition and produce physical benefits far beyond swinging a golf club. We will introduce them in the forum Fit For Golf With Vickie Lake. I know she can help us here:
Sounds like Redman helped to UNLOCK Azingers talent...a fine hitter at that.
DG
That's right, DG. The teacher is not God and thus cannot inject talent where there is none. But, he is able to help his student make the most of what is there, and that is an important contribution. Here's Paul Azinger's comment on the subject:
"Sure, I had some some God-given talent and I practiced hard, hitting hundreds of balls ever day, but John gave me excellent instruction. He recognized that my swing was too long and 'flippy' at the top. So the first thing we worked on was shortening my swing. Then he taught me how to use my legs and hips and how to turn level both back and through. That's a big part of his teaching. He also taught me to keep my hands and arms relaxed and to feel the weight of the club head on the end of the shaft.
John made a lot of changes to my swing, but the one thing he didn't change was my grip. I play with what many people call a strong grip. With most teachers, it wouldn't have lasted long. But, fortunately, John had the insight not to change it. He said that grip was natural for me, and that's how he wanted me to hold the club.
It's one thing to take an excellent golfer, make some adjustment to his stance, his ball position or some such, and marginally improve his play for a few weeeks. There are a lot of teachers who can do that. There aren't many, however, who can take someone as mediocre as I was and in three years have him playing the Tour. But that's exactly what John Redman did."
There are few relationships as complex -- or as fragile -- as that of player and coach. Since the teacher is not the performer, it is easy to limit his contribution to "informs and explains". But there is much more:
I understand that PGA TOUR player Tim Clark http://www.pgatour.com/players/02/31/35/ has a similar problem. In his case, an elbow deficiciency severely limits his ability to rotate his Left forearm, so much so that, as he says, "I can't even get my change at the drive-through". In his case, he just goes with the flow and plays with the super-strong Turned Left Hand. Seems to work!
I'd have to see the situation in person, but it sounds as if your friend should do the same. By the way, there are specific exercises that can help immensely to reverse the condition and produce physical benefits far beyond swinging a golf club. We will introduce them in the forum Fit For Golf With Vickie Lake. I know she can help us here:
I'm on the program!
And not to be sexist (although I know lot of women who like that kind of thing- ). Women tend to stand at attention with the insides of their elbows parallel to the target line- palms out. Men much shut. Biceps not triceps if lifting a bar.
Why are Hips ever mentioned in a golfswing analysis ? I don't see the relevance at all since they are 2 joints that do nothing unless moved by something else.
BTW Hula Hula is done by using your feet
Why are Hips ever mentioned in a golfswing analysis ? I don't see the relevance at all since they are 2 joints that do nothing unless moved by something else.
BTW Hula Hula is done by using your feet
The hips get mentioned because their moving forward is a big part of creating axis tilt which allows the hands stay IN rather than being drug OUT off the plane as a result of the shoulders spinning early.
Hula Hula is simply the hips moving INDEPENDENT of the shoulders . . . some to do with feet but more to do with the spine and moving the center of the hip turn toward the target while keeping the head fixed . . .
Per Homer . . .
7-14 HIP TURN The Hip Turn as a Stroke Component is strictly the product of the Knee Bend and the Waist Bend. Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head. A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate and so avoid Right Elbow – and – Hip interference and its “Roundhousing” Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down – the Delivery Line ROLL PREPARATION (12-3-22).
Except for its being, in itself, the Weight Shift, the Hip Turn is a motion permitting – rather than causing – the other effects, actions and motions of the Pivot. Weight Shift is strictly a HIP MOTION. Substituting a Head Motion and/or Knee Motion will make Swaying inevitable.
The Hip Turn can be used to control or modify Hip Action Variations and prevent Zone #1 (9-1) exaggerations. See 2-N and 7-16.
7-15 HIP ACTION The Hip Action Category is included to separate the “motion” of the Hips form any work they may accomplish.
The work the Hip Action does, is to lead and pull the Shoulder back and down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications. Forgetting to shift the weight to clear the Right Hip is difficult if the Hips are initiating the Shoulder Turn – in either direction. Study 2-N and 7-3. With Swingers using the Arc of Approach (2-J-3), this actuation may be executed as a “throwing” of the Right Shoulder by the Hips as in 10-19-C.
Hip Action must not be haphazard. It is a Pivot Component that must be carefully timed and sequenced to sustain the continuity and spacing of the Pivot Train (of Components). Omitting the Hip Action unintentionally will disrupt the Feel as well as the continuity of the entire Pivot. See 6-B-3-O regarding Pivot Rhythm.
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