I think that BM and BR are performing the same pelvic rotational movement from a biomechanical perspective, except that BM is deliberately allowing his head and upper torso to rotate as far as possible to the right (head is outside his inner right foot) to exaggerate the drill effect and to get that clubshaft perpendicular to the ball-target line. By contrast, BR is probably attempting to keep his head more stationary and within the boundaries of his stance.
Jeff.
Jeff, I don't think we see reality differently, I just don't have an understanding of bio-mechanics as you do. I do appreciate all the time you put in studying the swing and enjoy you sharing what you learn.
Thanks,
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I think that BM and BR are performing the same pelvic rotational movement from a biomechanical perspective, except that BM is deliberately allowing his head and upper torso to rotate as far as possible to the right (head is outside his inner right foot) to exaggerate the drill effect and to get that clubshaft perpendicular to the ball-target line. By contrast, BR is probably attempting to keep his head more stationary and within the boundaries of his stance.
Jeff.
I'm confused Jeff . . . could we clear up exactly where we stand here . . . are we moving our head or not? We have one post where we've got people moving their head to their right foot . . . then we have posts where we should leave the head where it is . ..
I'm lost . . . what was the point of the deal with the head moving over the right foot? What exactly is the biomechanic "optimum" . . . and "optimum" to what end?
I think I got lost in all the spine talk as to what the point of this is . . . would you mind restating your position? Sorry to be such a doofus.
Most folks see movements of the whole spine differently or similarly depending on what it is that they agree upon to see. There are three academically agreed upon sections of the spine that can manoeuver independently from each other or in concert with each other. If any or all of these sections pivot from a starting condition then there can be no sway (or bob). Each section can likewise sidebend, flex, or extend in concert or independently. The lumbar joints are typically less flexible and offer less range of motion than the thoracic joints, and thoracics likewise are less flexible and mobile compared to cervicals. Things get mighty complicated when the three sections are connected and thereby influenced by movements of scapulas, shoulders with humeral heads, pelvises with femoral heads, etc.
Regardless of the inherent complexity of observed spinal movements, if any section of the spine pivots from an original vertical, sidebent, flexed, or extended condition, then that section will retain its original condition. Otherwise the section or sections in question did not pivot. Most golfers start with a bit of sidebend away from the target with all three sections of the spine. If they truly pivot then the original sidebends are retained.
Perhaps "pivot" needs to be redefined for golf swing observations and resultant commentary. Perhaps golf swing observations and commentary concerning pivots are intrinsically too difficult for the human eye to accurately perceive because in the pivoting of any object with girth, the frontal view of a point on that object will move in the opposite direction of a point 180 degrees away on the backside of the same pivoting object.
If all agree that any segment of the spine is tilted or sidebent away from the target at address then all must agree that that segment will remain in that tilt or sidebend if it truly pivots thereafter, even though it may not look like it is truly pivoting from a different point of view. Otherwise we need to call segmental movements of the spine during the golfswing something else as we tend to do when we observe that at least a portion of the spine sidebends a bit more away from the target(secondary axis tilt) to facilitate a good downswing.
By the way, I'm probably like most experienced video teaching pros in that I have never witnessed what I could honestly diagnose as a pure backswing or downswing pivoting of the segments of a given spine in any given swing I have ever analyzed.
I think that BM was using that drill to teach golfers not to sway the pelvis laterally, but to rotate the pelvis.
Brady Riggs is teaching the same basic principle is this swing video lesson.
Jeff.
Jeff,
In your posted video, the excellent instructor Brady Riggs is advising (and executing) a pure, gyroscopic Pivot Motion. He is teaching golfers to rotate in a centered fashion -- "create space" -- and that instruction is correct. To even imply that what he is doing in any way represents the BM "Guardsman Head Sway" drill you posted above -- and are now defending in arrears as a "pelvis rotation" drill -- is an abomination to the sensibilities of intelligent golfers everywhere.
We encourage debate on the fine points, Jeff, and we welcome your contributions. We also can handle being patronized (as long as we feel we are being educated). But, don't continue to insult us with obvious contradicitons.
That tactic does nothing to further the objectives of this fraternity and destroys your own credibility within it.
I'm confused Jeff . . . could we clear up exactly where we stand here . . . are we moving our head or not? We have one post where we've got people moving their head to their right foot . . . then we have posts where we should leave the head where it is . ..
I'm lost . . . what was the point of the deal with the head moving over the right foot? What exactly is the biomechanic "optimum" . . . and "optimum" to what end?
I think I got lost in all the spine talk as to what the point of this is . . . would you mind restating your position? Sorry to be such a doofus.
. . . BM is deliberately allowing his head and upper torso to rotate as far as possible to the right (head is outside his inner right foot) . . .
This is called a "Sway", Jeff.
A Sway.
It robs the Pivot Motion of its Center; disrupts the ideal Centered Arc of the Clubhead; and deserves well its exalted status as the 4th Snare (3-F-7-D). Absent its necessary Center, the Pivot fails to maintain its essential geometric alignments and is thus "only superficially correct" (7-12).
Hang in there, Kevin. You're on the right track. Study 1-L #1 and #2. Be extremely skeptical of novel ideas -- from whatever pulpit preached -- that don't square with these axioms.
Yoda - you wrote-: "We encourage debate on the fine points, Jeff, and we welcome your contributions. We also can handle being patronized (as long as we feel we are being educated). But, don't continue to insult us with obvious contradicitons.
That tactic does nothing to further the objectives of this fraternity and destroys your own credibility within it."
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You seem to be implying that I am acting in "bad faith" by tactically trying to get away with some obvious contradiction. That's terribly unfair! I may be arrogant and stupid and uninformed and totally wrong, but I am not trying to intentionally mislead anybody.
Brian was concerned that golfers tended to reverse pivot if they rigidly kept their heads too still. He suggested that a golfer should learn to pivot the pelvis correctly by having a free rotation of the pelvis that would allow the spine to acquire a rightwards spinal tilt. Brain was not concerned if the head moves slightly to the right. He wasn't promoting a deliberate movement of the head. He was simply stating that it is more important to keep the base of the neck still.
His exaggerated drill may produce an excessive upper torso tilt to the right and excessive head shift to the right, but he was not encouraging upper torso swaying (which is a lateral torso movement without a major rotary component). In fact, I think that he was essentially dealing with the same problem-issue that Brady Riggs was talking about - a reverse pivot due to swaying the pelvis right-laterally instead of rotating the pelvis. Both instructors were encouraging a movement of the right femoral head left-backwards, thereby inducing a pelvic rotation, and that pelvic rotational movement would naturally cause the spine to become more oriented towards the right (as I previously described).
I think that both golf instructors are encouraging the correct method of rotating the pelvis in the backswing, which inevitably causes the spine and upper torso to acquire a rightwards-tilt. However, my personal belief is that this reverse-K postural movement should not be exaggerated to such a degree that the head moves more than 1-3" right off its central position. My personal bias is that a small amount of rightwards head movement is acceptable during the backswing, but that it is very unacceptable to allow the left side of the head/face to move closer to the target at any time point during the backswing or downswing (compared to its address position).
I may be wrong in my opinions, but I am definitely not trying to mislead anyone or reconcile obvious contradictions.
p.s. Hope that the teacher doesn’t mind my attempt to verify a few points as other quoted his drill.
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If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
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