A Question for Yoda, regarding Homer and Shaft Flex
 

Yoda,
Was just scrolling thru the archives and came upon your discussion with Homer regarding shaft flex. Do you believe his statements to be true? It seems to me that shaft flex would have something to do with how well you feel PP#3. Or am I completely off base here? Would flex have anything to do with anything at all(gee, could I ask a more generic question at all:) )?

shaft flex
 

I'll let the green guy tell you about his conversations with Homer. But, I know that shaft flex for me is critical. If I don't have something very stiff with my normal lag pressure, I over-stress the shaft and it feels terrible. The more flexible it is, the farther right it goes. The only way I can keep it from going to the right is to quit, then it snaps to the left.

One thing that I've never been able to figure out is the Rifle shafts. I've tried every shaft flex they make, and I've never hit one that I liked. I know many that swear by them, but I don't know what's wrong with me not liking them. I can't even waggle with them without getting the heebie-jeebies. It's still very confusing to me.

Also, I'll tell you something that I found to be very funny about fitting. I fit myself with the Henry-Griffitts cart and got the clubs that I liked. One of my best friends works for Mizuno and had a launch monitor. He tested me with my clubs and said the launch angle/spin rate/etc. were all perfect. He thought I had used a launch monitor to test the results, but I told him I just did it with watching the ball flight. He said, "don't change your equipment."

Ted,

Rifles PLAY way stiffer than the 'number'....


....way stiffer.....


Try something WAY weaker, and you'll like 'em fine.

Rifles
 

I'm TOTALLY satisfied with my HG's which are somewhere in the X-100 (dynamic range). But, sometimes I have a student with Rifles and I want to demonstrate something. Like I said, I've tried all their flexes. Weak is horrible, stiff is less horrible, it doesn't matter. HG doesn't use Rifles, so it's of no consequence. HG also SST PURE's all of their shafts. I don't think there's another company in the market that goes that extra mile.

I don't like rifles either, so we have that going for us.

Now, as for PURing!!!

A++++


That's why HG is still around and 56,789 competirors are kaput!

IMO....Rifles suck.....They play very stiff and quite inconsistent....Do you think it's because of a bend point that varies through the set?

Where the hell is Billy when you need him?

I have rifles and am not a fan of how they feel; thinking about trading in the clubs because of the shafts, actually. That being said, I know others who seem to like them.

shafts and clubs
 

Has anyone tried Tom Wishon clubs? If you have, what do you think?

Full Set
 

I play a full set of Wishon clubs. The only club I don't like all that much is the driver. Tom's drivers are mostly setup for people who need help getting a higher launch angle. I don't really need that. The fairway woods are awesome. I play the 515GRTs in both 3W and 5W. I shafted them with Aldila NVS75 in stiff flex. They are easy to get up off the deck and hit it a long way.

I also play Wishon hybrids for my 3I and 4I replacements. Very iron like club and easy to hit. I have these shafted with Grafalloy Blue Pro Launch hybrid shaft in stiff flex. They are still a little soft, but that makes it easy to hit'em high.

I play the Wishon 550s in my irons with Harrison Premier Lite 85 steel shafts in regular flex. Nice lightweight steel shaft. I play the blades up to 6I and the 5I is the cavity back. These are solid irons. They are very controllable and not hard to hit for blades. Trajectory is medium for me.

Finally I went with a 52* / 58* wedges to go along with my PW. I picked a 56* / 60* of different styles to get the wider sole I was looking for and had Wishon cherry pick / bend to get me the loft I wanted (they are very good about that). Both clubs have smallish bounce (8*), but a wider sole. This is a nice compromise that lets me play'em from the sand as well as the fairway.

All in all Wishon's clubs are very high quality, the service is great, and the price is reasonable. Everything in my bag at the moment is a long term keeper except the driver.

Wishon has been described as the smartest man in golf. He's got a fantastic book Search for the Perfect Club. Great read and very good information. Don't have any of his sticks but you can bet your petutie that whatever he puts out is good.

experimenting
 

I have two sets of irons with the same heads. One has Apex 3 shafts, factory stock. I just had another set reshafted with Flighted Rifle 4.5 shafts. I'm going to alternate them this year and see which I like better.

Mona Lisa Steph
 

Great post, Steph!

For the rest of us...

Any questions?

:shock:

P.S. Did anybody else read that post and have visions of My Cousin Vinny and Mona Lisa Vito in the witness chair? This gal Thinkingplus has Game and knows her gear!

************************************************

D.A. Jim Trotter: Now, Ms. Vito, being an expert on general automotive knowledge, can you tell me... what would the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bel Air Chevrolet, with a 327 cubic-inch engine and a four-barrel carburetor?
Mona Lisa Vito: That's a bullshit question.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Does that mean that you can't answer it?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a bullshit question, it's impossible to answer.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Impossible because you don't know the answer!
Mona Lisa Vito: Nobody could answer that question!
D.A. Jim Trotter: Your Honor, I move to disqualify Ms. Vito as an expert witness!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Can you answer the question?
Mona Lisa Vito: No, it is a trick question!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Why is it a trick question?
Vinny Gambini: [to Bill] Watch this.
Mona Lisa Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '63. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Well... uh... she's acceptable, Your Honor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vinny Gambini: Ms. Vito, it has been argued by me, the defense, that two sets of guys met up at the Sac-O-Suds, at the same time, driving identical metallic mint green 1964 Buick Skylark convertibles. Now, can you tell us by what you see in this picture, if the defense's case holds water?
[Lisa examines the picture]
Vinny Gambini: Ms. Vito, please answer the question: does the defense's case hold water?
Mona Lisa Vito: No! The defense is wrong!
Vinny Gambini: Are you sure?
Mona Lisa Vito: I'm positive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vinny Gambini: How could you be so sure?
Mona Lisa Vito: Because there is no way that these tire marks were made by a '64 Buick Skylark convertible. These marks were made by a 1963 Pontiac Tempest.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Objection, Your Honor! Can we clarify to the court whether the witness is stating opinion or fact?
Judge Chamberlain Haller: This is your opinion?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a fact!
Vinny Gambini: I find it hard to believe that this kind of information could be ascertained simply by looking at a picture!
Mona Lisa Vito: Would you like me to explain?
Vinny Gambini: I would love to hear this!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: So would I.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mona Lisa Vito: The car that made these two, equal-length tire marks had positraction. You can't make these marks without positraction, which was not available on the '64 Buick Skylark!
Vinny Gambini: And why not? What is positraction?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a limited slip differential which distributes power equally to both the right and left tires. The '64 Skylark had a regular differential, which, anyone who's been stuck in the mud in Alabama knows, you step on the gas, one tire spins, the other tire does nothing.
[the jury members nod, with murmurs of "yes," "that's right," etc]
Vinny Gambini: Is that it?
Mona Lisa Vito: No, there's more! You see where the left tire mark goes up on the curb and the right tire mark stays flat and even? Well, the '64 Skylark had a solid rear axle, so when the left tire would go up on the curb, the right tire would tilt out and ride along its edge. But that didn't happen here. The tire mark stayed flat and even. This car had an independent rear suspension. Now, in the '60's, there were only two other cars made in America that had positraction, and independent rear suspension, and enough power to make these marks. One was the Corvette, which could never be confused with the Buick Skylark. The other had the same body length, height, weight, wheel base, and wheel track as the '64 Skylark, and that was the 1963 Pontiac Tempest.
Vinny Gambini: And because both cars were made by GM, were both cars available in metallic mint green paint?
Mona Lisa Vito: They were!
Vinny Gambini: Thank you, Ms. Vito. No more questions. Thank you very much.
[kissing her hands]
Vinny Gambini: You've been a lovely, lovely witness.

:D

Thanks, Yoda!
 

My significant other and I build clubs as a hobby. It gives us the ability to tweak our clubs in various ways until we like'em for a lot less than the cost of OEM clubs. It is fun and you can get clubs fit for your game. Also, my post was fairly brief. I did not go into how the frequency slope and swingweight of my irons is very non-standard! We'll save that for the insomniacs... :D

Let's hear it! Equipment is fascinating. Have you read Wishon's book?

You gotta be from another planet. I can't imagine askink what's her name . . . Hey you wannna help me build a new set? She would slap the taste out of my mouth.

I Have Read His Book
 

Wishon's book is pretty good. It provides a good basic understanding of what does and does not matter with your equipment (focus - GOLF equipment :D ). Most of what he is talking about I had heard about or already figured out on my own. For the non-club builder, it contains very good information, though.

Don't be too hard on the significant other. We all have our advantages and disadvantages. I bet she fries a mean chicken and doesn't kick your aspirations on the golf course. I, on the other hand, would likely carbonize the chicken and tend to pound (in a nice way of course :D ) most anyone on the golf course that I play with (the hubby deals with my impertinence occasionally, but I sneak by most of the time). :shock: Everyone is different and their uniqueness should be appreciated.:cool:

Read It Today!
 

I read the book in one sitting today at work. Here's a quiz for y'all:

If Mr. Woods were to put a ladies flex shaft in his driver, how much would that shaft increase his launch angle?

Just a guess....would it maybe decrease it? Cause the shaft would never unload....???

Hey Yoda,

Great post on that. One of my favorite movies of all time, thanks to jr33.

Zero, Tiger would snap it. :D

I once asked Tom about hitting vs swinging. Also release types.
All stress the clubshaft different ways. Tom now has some of that in his fitting program but still believes in the old ball flight laws. That is a shame and shows there is still a ways to go for the average fitter to improve the tools in hand.

Rifles - years into this game and I do not ever stock them.

"Play the lightest shaft that you can control". Note not "play the lightest most flexible shaft that you can control" which is the industry catch cry. Why? Coz too many fitted players end up way too whippy. But for an average Joe, better too whippy than too stiff.

I just pulled apart a so called fitted HG club for a client today. Fitter had to have been on drugs. Builder must have had a quota for glue that had expired. I fix more HGs than almost any other brand of 'fitted clubs'. Not having a go at HGs just stating what I see. Over priced and the fitting system is still in the stone age. Most fitters are not TGM pro's and so just are ice cream salesmen...unlike the fellows who run this site:)
If you are going to get HGs, go there or do your dough!

Chairman of the Board
 

The Chairman of the Board of Henry-Griffitts and I had a chance encounter that changed my life. His name is Billy McDonald. He's a delight and a very knowledgeable man. When I was at my previous facility, we had hired a new teacher, Steve Ferguson. Steve has become one of my best friends. He and I have also changed facilities and have remained together. Steve was an HG fitter and thought it would be a great product for us to use in fitting, as I had not been exposed to HG.

Billy, as anyone that knows him would know, is not one to sit in a boardroom and let things happen. He makes things happen. So, he wanted to be in the field as a Regional Director in addition to his other duties. Therefore, I had my encounter. I call it an encounter, because Billy is like a squirrel on crack. If you blink, you miss him. I love his energy and passion.

When he was spending time at my facility and was observing me as a teacher, he said he was having trouble with his short game, mainly with chipping. So, he asked for a chipping lesson. I gave him one and he said it had been a long time since he heard that sound. I jokingly told him that it was called "compression". He asked me, "where did you learn how to do this?". I told him that I had taken lessons from a TGM instructor, and was just telling what I had been told. Billy thought it was the best chipping lesson he'd ever received, and wanted to know more about it. So, I recommended that he contact Danny and Joe, who at the time were co-owners of TGM.

Billy started piecing things together and found that his most successful accounts had ties to TGM. When he realized this, he started his quest to get everyone TGM Authorized, including me and all other fitters in his territory. So, our chance chipping lesson evolved into something much bigger.

So, I went to get Authorized in TGM. And, then the greatest blessing to my teaching ability walked through the door during one of our classes, Lynn Blake. He was just sitting in my class and listening, but in true Lynn Blake fashion, he couldn't sit still when G.O.L.F. was being spoken. Joe Daniels let him teach part of our class, and from that point on, I started wearing out Lynn's cell number to get him to come see me at my facility. I was relentless with the calls, because I knew he was one in a million. I had the hunger and he could fill it.

Lynn finally came to my facility after all the badgering, and he watched me teach. He loved what I was doing (as he should have, since I was doing everything he told us to do in the class). Then, I showed him the changes that I had made in my own motion since the class. I think 'astounded' would be an understatement, because he couldn't believe it was the same guy he saw in the class. As a result, he asked for my participation on his site and we became partners in the schools. I was honored to do anything he wanted.

All of this resulted in the largest number of new AI's in TGM, thanks to Billy. He wanted all of his fitters to also be the best teachers. So, TGM and HG have been joined at the hip ever since. I'm happy to have served any role in that evolution.

So, my journey:
Ted with some TGM > Steve Ferguson > Billy McDonald > HG Fitting > TGM Authorization > Lynn Blake

My life wouldn't be as rich without each of these people and experiences. I've been blessed beyond measure by each of them.

Great post! Love all this history - how it come to be stuff.

Question: What was the chipping lesson?

the machine gun
 

It was mainly focusing on lag pressure. I had him do the machine-gun drill. I told him as soon as he touched the ball that bullets were going to come out of the grip end. He stopped flipping pretty quickly, when it had life and death consequences. :twisted:

I usually put a fiberglass rod in the grip end, so if they flip it, they hit themselves in the ribs.

Ted, this is so funny- a buddy of mine is the worst flipper you have ever seen. A few years ago, I put a similar aid on his wedge before a round, and naturally, he smashed himself in the ribs, twice. So, what did he do? Did he think to himself, geez, I'm doing something wrong here, I'd better fix it? Or, geez...I'd better see an instructor and get this fixed? Nah...all he did was say, "Damn, this thing hurts!", took it off, and never gave his flippy ways another thought again. He can still flip a hamburger when he chips...

Nope!
 

Nope. It would increase it just 2-3 degrees. You'd think it would be so much more.

Regarding unloading, Wishon says:

"When we release the wrist-cock on the downswing, the arms begin to slow down, and the club begins to speed up...arms lose energy, club speeds up."

There's a lot of other fascinating stuff. Myths regarding loading and unloading the shaft...it's a great read.

Ted's Story with HG
 

Ted,

Great story...thanks for taking the time to share it.

DG

the whole truth
 

I have to tell you a story that sounds like a fairy tale, but I promise it's true.

I was using the old stick (orange flag that goes on the back of a go-cart, cut in half) in the grip drill with a student. I get a very unusual phone call from a woman. She starts by asking, "do you teach my boyfriend, Tim (to protect the innocent)?" I said, "yes, I do." She then asked, "were you the one that put those marks on his side?"

Wanting to laugh hysterically, I said, "actually, he made the marks. I just made them possible."

I wanted to say, "no, it wasn't me. Have you asked that other girl that he was with today?" :twisted:

Or . . ."Man if you think those are bad . . . you should see the ones on his ass."

Thats said with a lisp right:p

thanks
 

I appreciate you thinking so. Isn't it amazing how things work out so well?

I wouldn't change those events for anything. And, Lynn's house can't be more than 7 miles from my facility. I'm just thankful his grandchildren live here in Atlanta. It makes me feel safer about not having to move to follow him somewhere.

Lynn calls all these events serendipitous. But, I think it was God having pity on a middle-aged, red-neck, golf pro, from the other side of the tracks (me), that needed a little more education. So, he brought Lynn out of hibernation to help me. That’s the way I see it. :)

Slithering
 

I'll second. I and at least another 3000 or so are glad that Lil' Green Dude slithered out from under his rock and wiped the sleep boogers outta his eyes.

Mmm hmm. That's right baby.

hg's
 

My hg's were one inch over standard length, plus 4 degrees more upright than standard and the shaft flexed out as softer than ladies. The clubs that I have now suit me very well. They are 1/4 inch over than standard length, 2 degrees flat, with a reg Dynalite shaft.

For the cost of my hg's I could have bought 3 sets of clubs that actually fit.

As a matter of interest, who fitted you?

It is very unfortunate that you feel this way about your HG's. Before any more "experts" comment on HG let's first clarify a few points.
First of all what is "standard"? HG uses 37.5 inches on a five iron. Some use 37.75, 38, 38.25 depending on the company or the shaft used. Some companies actually have different standards for different clubs.
The same argument is made for lie angle. HG uses 61 degrees on a 5 iron. Other companies are more upright, again sometimes using more than one "standard". HG also changes lie angle by 1/2 degrees or less in some cases. Many companies have changed their own standards for the sake of sales.
So if your HG's are 38.5 inches on the 5 iron (plus 1 inch) and 65 degrees (4 up) then what standard are you using? Please remember that every manufacturer is different.
Now let's discuss shaft flex. How many cycles on what kind of shaft, at what length, etc. The reason many "experts" have a problem with HG's is because they do not understand what process is used. HG uses what is commonly called a "flat" cut in their irons, which means that there is about 1 cycle difference from club to club. A “standard” cut uses about 7 cycles from club to club. What this means is 2 completely different ways to measure flex. Which one is correct? That is for the player to determine. I enjoy the softer “feeling” short irons which a flat cut produces. HG can cut shafts either way for the player.
I have learned over the years not to question the fits of other golf professionals. As we all know there are a variety of ways to teach the golf swing, not all correct. There are also a number of ways to fit a golf club, not all are correct. I personally do not think a fit can be correct unless there is feedback from the player, teacher, and fitter. When I fit golf clubs I use a launch monitor, ball flight, and video. I use the club to change motion and ball flight. I will not sell a person golf clubs unless I feel it will improve their motion and subsequent ball flight. The reason I use HG is because they are THE ONLY GOLF CLUB MANUFACTURER that stands behind the teacher/ fitter and allows changes to be made for free in the 1st 100 days. Any changes after that for one year are done at half price. Why? Because HG wants the player to improve and understands how the equipment affects motion.
When you decided to buy your HG’s I am confident you did so because you actually hit the club and liked it. I would hope that a lie board was used and you did mark the clubs in the center of the face and center of the sole, If you played with them and did not like them you should have addressed this with your teacher/fitter. I have had students send testimonials to HG about how much they love their clubs then quit playing them because an “expert” said they were this or that, thus destroying their trust.

Quotes like these are what TGM has been dealing with for years, a complete lack of understanding. Henry-Griffitts has pioneered fitting and does so many things that other companies not only will not do but CAN’T do. Our fitting cart has a minimum of 4,000 combinations of shaft type, flex, length, head design, lie angle, loft, etc. I think that most carts come with 40. HG was the first to introduce a 13 degree driver, the industry has since followed. HG was the first to come out with a 16 degree driver and the industry again is following. HG developed the interchangeable head system more than 10 years ago. Again the industry is following. These are just a few examples of HG’s stone-age mentality. Also, HG’s suggested retail price is the same as just about every other manufacturer out there. I invite anybody reading this to visit www.henry-griffitts.com and find out how dedicated we are to helping the student and teacher achieve their goals. Also, you might ask Lynn and Ted their opinions on HG and their views about what I demonstrate everyday as an HG fitter and TGM teacher.

my HG clubs
 

Let me be the first to step up to the front of the class and voice my opinion. I have to say that Jeff is a total professional, and is excellent at what he does. He's a great asset to HG, and the Barclays Golf School would have been impossible without him. He was a tremendous help.

On a personal note, I love my HG clubs. When I was fit, I fit into a 38" 5 iron, at HG's standard lie angle. I am effectively 1 degree upright under HG's scale. I'm 6 feet tall, with monkey arms :monky: . I have since been tested by multiple HG fitters that I know, and my fit has not changed since being fit five years ago. MY CLUBS ARE STILL THE SAME! So, I've saved thousands of dollars, by not having to find a new set each year that might work. Once you get the right set of clubs, there's no reason to get anything else.

In addition, if I wanted another brand of clubs, I'd have to order them, remove the shafts, have those shafts SST PURED and re-installed, for an additional cost. That would be, if only by the grace of God, the shafts were of the same frequency. Or, I could just order another set of HG clubs that are already PURED from the factory. The shaft is the engine for the club and sets off the rack are inferior, in comparison to HG.

As another aside, I was tested by one of my friends that works for another major manufacturer. He tested me on a launch monitor to get the hard data. His net findings were that my clubs were perfect for me. He asked me what brand of launch monitor I used when I was fitted, and I told him it was a human launch monitor, an HG Fitter. We did it by watching ball flight. When another company says, "don't change your clubs, they're perfect for you", I feel confident that I have a good match.

If I thought something was better, I'd play it.

The Art of Clubfitting
 

In May 2005, Billy McDonald, GSEB, Master Clubfitter and Chairman of Henry-Griffitts, helped me into a new set of HGs. There were no fitting charts or launch monitors, just me and him and cart full of heads and thistles. I Hit. He fit (a new Clubshaft). I Swung. He hung (a new Clubhead). We Hit and fit and Swung and hung like this for some time, and then he said...

"I think we're done."

"Why?" said I.

"Because you've hit the last fifty balls with that club."

To make a long story short, I got my new clubs a couple of days later -- when you're ready to roll with HG, they're ready to roll with you! -- and prompted by an invite from a friend, headed to the golf course. I hadn't played a round of golf in months (January 4th). I had taught and drilled and so forth in the meantime, but I am not kidding...no golf.

Results?

70.

As in two-under on a championship layout. I lost a shot coming in -- :crybaby: -- and I was choking like crazy into 'the house', but I somehow nailed it down.

That's the truth...and those clubs have been in my bag ever since. :)

So, we know two things: First, the HG Club works, and second, I had the opportunity to be fit well. There are many fine brands of golf clubs on the market today. Unfortunately, there are not so many fine fitters.

A few months ago, I found myself watching golfgnome -- Jeff Hull, GSEB, PGA, -- fitting several golfers in a Demo Day down South. What I saw, I found hard to believe. I'm watching an accountant drill shot-after-shot with his brand new, well-endorsed Driver low right, low right, low right. Jeff -- who in addition to his clubfitting and teaching talents, also happens to be the 2004 Georgia Section PGA Champion -- walks to the fitting cart, grabs a shaft and screws on a head and -- voila! -- long, high and straight. Another long, high and straight. And then one more.

Back into the accountant's hands went the first Club -- the retail customer's attempt to buy ball flight.

Low right. Low right. Low right.

And then back to Jeff's concoction: Long, high, straight. Long, high, straight.

No TGM. No hands-on coaching. No nothin'. Just a different golf club. I had never seen anything quite like it.

Until the next guy. Then, more of the same!

Anyway, the bottom line is that I invited Jeff up to Westchester, N.Y., to work this same magic with the private clients of Barclays Capital at our Barclays Classic Golf Academy. We weren't selling clubs, and our fitting specs were designed to be 'brand generic' and portable. Our objective was to get a club that fit into the hands of the student prior to his or her instruction. Did we get that job done? We didn't have the benefit of outdoor ball flight those four days, but the indoor launch monitors told the tale:

Professionally done, regardless of brand, clubfitting works.

Big time.

My hg's did not fit.

Please, please, please tell us all why they did not fit. Please tell us if you went through a follow-up with your teacher. If they do not fit, private message me so maybe we can fix the situation. We want the clubs to work. Blanket statements that "they do not fit" puts the blame on HG. Like I stated originally, there is a relationship between you and your fitter/teacher. If he did not want to work with you, then I blame him. But if you are going with the opinion of another fitter or club repair person, then HG can not be held responsible. We want you to enjoy your clubs and your game.

Fitting Problems
 

Sounds like you've got a legitmate beef, jpeck. You paid for something you obviously didn't get. But your beef is with the fitter, not the company. They can only build according to the specs they are given.

Years ago, I paid handsomely for a custom-built set of Titlelist irons. I was fitted by a competent PGA professional and the company was given accurate specs, but what I got was nothing close. At their expense, I completely re-worked that set with a local clubfitter. In that instance, I blamed Titleist.

As I should have.