Swinging the wrist.. - is that correct?
 

Hi everyone, its my first post and I had downloaded some videos here and I find it absolutely revolutionary to my swing. I basically shape my golf around the so called one plane swing ala Stuart Appleby. And to be frank still struggling but improving at a good rate. You can rate me a begginer since i had rested 5 years and started come back March 05 just played seriously again since Jan 06(joined a club). and my hdcp is lurking around 18-25.

What i want to ask is about the #3 pressure point. I tried to play with that but still, I still occasionally cast and I noticed that its because I am still trying to control the clubhead !.... And i basically keep going at it until i realised and rememebered to swing your hands instead of clubhead... However, Im feeling a more pressure due to bending on my leading and trailing wrist ( my leading wrist a bit cupped but flat )and vuala ... It feels like the clubhead clips and snaps through the impact area. Angle of approach is right elbow plane. right elbow behind hips .

Now am I in the right direction?

Thank you in advance.

Anthony

Yes- time will tell
 

I'd probably say YES! Not sure if I followed your post- but sensing the lag in the "hands" versus isolating in the #3 pressure point ONLY sounds like what your describing and if so - I'd say your on the right track. Certainly, monitoring the hands and not the clubhead directly is DEFINITELY moving in the right direction.

wow
 

Thank you for the answer mike. To be frank , i'm not sure I am really doing it correctly. Tried to take a video but for some funny reason, the recording turns out quite bad no image at all.. And I am a natorious flipper and still find meddling with the changes to achieve more consistent results

My current swing.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/8687098635371736/june_2006/

I have a very steep backswing/through swing in this picture, Not enough tilt, and using the arm plane ...

The changes I tryin to achieve this months.
1. Head stays behind,
2. More tilt , right shoulder above right hips.
3. Stay with the elbow plane as long as possible.
4. Stable hips , balance, ( very hard for me)
5. Stop flipping and have alot more clubhead control. instead of a freewheel Flip ...
6. Slightly more bendover.
7. A more Core generated swing which is 50% more quiet.
8. More lag.

Had found the Ben Doyle videos 1 2 3 , Yoda Flying Wedge 4ls hinges delivery path etc and the most important piece , finish swivel(this is amazing).

I am slowly digesting the content of the forum.. Just very curious.. what is 12 - c - x whatever means? ... in these forums?

Any suggestion to improve is greatly appreciated. like what to read etc.. In a entry point to tgm.

They are chapter references to the book, The Golfing Machine by Homer Kelly. Saves time typing the complete text.

The Gateway Found
 

Welcome aboard, nuke, and thanks for these first posts. You've got questions, and we've got answers. Everybody here wants to help. Stay with us, and you'll learn a ton.

To avoid Casting (Throwaway), pull the butt-end of the Club directly toward the Plane Line (the baseline of your Inclined Plane...usually the Target Line). :)

Thank you for the nice reply .. I feel so welcomed already

Mr. Yoda, I noticed you say Pull .. Not push (oooops) -.- been practicing the wrong things. :confused1

Drag Load For Swingers
 

Nuke,

The Stroke you posted is a Swing, not a Hit. And the Swinger Drag Loads -- drags (pulls) the Swinging Club Down Plane -- directly toward the Plane Line. The Body pulls the Arms and the Arms pull the Hands and Club.

From a procedural point of view, you may find yourself hitting some disastrous shots by trying to Pull. Instead, it may be more helpful to try to spin your right shoulder down plane. The 'down' element (of the down/out/forwards movement of the right shoulder on the downstroke) is especially important for you because you need to tilt your axis more.

Pulling With the Pivot
 

There is no question that the Pivot plays a vital role in the Lag Loading during the Start Down. Indeed, the Pivot accomplishes that Loading with no independent motion of the Arms and Hands (6-K-0). It is this sequencing that induces the Pull sensation of Drag Loading. Per 10-19-C (capitalization by Homer Kelley):

"Drag Loading is...an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise..."

I felt it !
 

I had been swinging the club at 1/2 speed and never In my life ball roll so much in the driver, since I was mostly flipping, there is too much spin on the ball. Ball striking and directions improved tremendously. However, Im still completely missing balls here and there to accustom to this completely new feeling and Mis-Sequencing)

As you said Mr. Yoda " Your game will, IMMEDIATELY, IMMEDIATELY! Go to the next level " in the swivel video. Definitely your not lying, now who can promise immediate and deliver?

Thank you... I'll hang around for good.

Thanks Tongzilla... the shoulder image definitely helps me to get that feeling .

Correct me if I'm wrong but I always thought that TGM advocated a Hand Controlled Pivot. Starting the downswing with the Pivot per 6-K-0 tends to throw the shoulders at the ball, and that 6-L-0 was far better as the shoulders are undisturbed by this initial move from the End. Drag Loading can still be accomplished with solely the hands and arms, and once complete, the Pivot "kicks in" to maintain balance through the remainder of the swing. That's the way I've been swinging :) -- and with good results may I add.

Hands controlled pivot does not mean hands powered pivot. In the swingers procedure, you create a pressure at pp4 against the primary lever assembly to drive it through impact - pp3 aims at the aiming point - to be able to do this you must have the right shoulder go downplane.

PP4 - pivot pressure driving against the primary lever assembly
PP3 - passively directs the lag pressure

The Pivot Stroke Delivery
 

Mathew is right on here. The Swinging Stroke is all about the transfer of Body Momentum into the Left Arm and Club. If the Hands initiate the Downstroke Sequence, then you bypass the 'massive rotor' and forfeit its Momentum. Once left behind, the Body can never catch up.

I didn't say that it did. In the backswing the pivot reacts to the hands and arms. It does not lead them.

10-19-C DRAG LOADING Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the "Swinger", an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise, from a quick Start Down to Release.

IMO you can get no quicker "quick Start Down" with just the hands and arms, unencumbered by the Pivot.

Isn't that more of a Hitter's technique? The last thing I want to do is to have my shoulders rotating past square to the target line prior to impact.

I primarily use pp3 to sense the change of direction at the End, and attempt to maintain that feeling through Drag Loading to Release.

The primary lever assembly is driven by creating pressure against it... Theres only two places you can create pressure against the left arm - pp4 and pp1.... When the pressure is created at PP4 the flail (2-K) acts like a rope handle....


Hitters use pp1....

The Swinger's Quick Start Down
 

The "quick Start Down" of the Swinger is "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action, not Instant Acceleration Hand Action. This Hip Action is dictated by the desired Hand Speed.

It is exactly the same sequence used when throwing a ball...the body leads and the arm and hand follows.

Bossman . . . This is not in the scope of this thread . . . but at the risk of jacking it. . . .could you provide us with a lil' bit about the Swinger's preferred Hip Action? And possibly relate it to the loading of PP4?

Thanks!

B

video
 

Just saw the video. Another one with an iron shot would be nice. I couldn't stop your video and do a frame by frame - can someone tell me how to do that or if maybe the software/site your using doesn't allow it?

Did notice that after impact with the clubshaft parallel to the ground you're in a bad location- the sign of hitting up or holding the clubface square to the target- maybe both. Would be great to see a full 6 iron and then maybe a chip shot with a Pitching Wedge.

Not according to the book..

6-H-0 IMPERATIVES
..
F. 9. Quick Start Down (10-23-C)

10-23-C TOP ARC AND STRAIGHT LINE This pattern takes the Hands beyond the Top-of-the-Line point, up and back along an Arc that is retraced when the Hands return to the Top-of-the-Line point. This "retracing" is ideal for longitudinal acceleration with (10-19-C).

I see no mention of hips.

I gave a simplified description and chose not to mention the weight transfer as ideally the weight transfer occurs as the backswing ends and should be over before drag loading occurs (IMO).

Accelerating the Hands With the Pivot
 

You have referenced 6-H-0, the stated "curriculum" for Educated Hands (Hitting and Swinging). By definition, there are no Pivot Components listed. In fact, in earlier editions of TGM, 6-H-0 was specifically described as "Hand Action Imperatives" instead of the Educated Hands "curriculum" approach later adopted. Those early editions (through the third) gave three Hand Imperatives (not to be confused with the Three Imperatives later designated in 2-0). Those three Hand Imperatives were listed as three "Avoids": Slowing the Hands (Quitting); Swinging from the wrist; and unintentional change in Lag Pressure. When the curriculum was expanded in the fourth edition, the three 'Avoids' became Items A, D and B respectively, and a new 'Follow-Through was added as 'C'. Also, the curriculum now differentiated between Hitting and Swinging (originally six items and later, in the fifth edition, ten) as dictated by the selected Lag Loading procedure.

In Pivot Strokes, the Re-Tracing Hands of 10-23-C are powered by the Pivot. This is the Centrifugal Downstroke Sequence of 6-M-1; the Pivot Stroke Delivery of 6-K-0; and the Body Power of 2-M-4. There can be no Re-Tracing in the Downstroke until the Left Arm moves, and the Left Arm -- #4 Accumulator Radius Power -- is driven by Right Shoulder Turn Thrust (6-B-4-A).

The Start Down is the period of Shoulder Acceleration (8-7) as led by the Hips (7-15) and their "Instant" Acceleration (10-19-C). The Downstroke is the period of Hand Acceleration (8-8 ).

The Weight Shift is the Hip Turn (7-14). Specifically, its Slide Component.

Not only do I know that, but I also understand it and execute it. This past month has been fun learning. Drag the Wet Mop, even from the Top. It finally sunk in. That's just how it feels. Pulling with your Core. I had to change almost everything. It is so repeatable on the Range and Golf Course, every time and Golf is so much more fun now. So much easier. I look forward to Practice and Play.

I can't imagine how hard it is to teach Golf but I know how hard it is to learn. Like Phil M. Said: "How can I be so Stupid?".

If I only knew then what I know now. :) Thanks again Yoda, Ted and VJ.

Getting It Done
 

Thank you, Daryl. You are a wonderful student!

Just for completeness
 

And Release (8-9) is the period of Clubhead Acceleration (and constant Hand speed).

You have to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not starting from scratch but slowly amending by swing with TGM concepts. For me, there has always been two pivots in the golf swing bridged by the weight shift. In earlier times I had a terrible time with balance and it was not until I allowed both pivots to be largely passive and supportive of the golf swing, was I able to play a reasonable game. Hopefully, in time I will be more in tune with more of TGM, although as helpful as these forums are, I really need some one-on-one sessions with a TGM AI. [I'll be absent for the next two days -- playing golf]

One Pivot...Not Two
 

This is the Slide with a Delayed Turn (10-14-B). Don't overdo the Slide; it should be just enough to shift the Weight -- in both directions. Balance, as always, is achieved through the correct Pivot, i.e., holding the center of gravity of the Body between the Feet while keeping the Head Stationary.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/868709863..._2006/original

To be able to see frame by frame :)

I have a problem with the TGM classifications in that none describes, as far as I can see, any resemblance to what I consider a "good downswing technique". With one's back to the target, at the top ("End" in TGM jargon) the worst possible thing one can do is to start moving the shoulders back to the ball before (1) the slide of the hips back is underway(**), and (2) the hands have reached waist high or thereabouts. Moving the shoulders first, even a fraction, leads to an over-the-top move. (** Actually, the slide of the hips back should start before the backswing completes.)

One other thing :)

It's impossible to overdo the Slide, so long as you're playing between the insides of the feet (I'm told that Ken Venturi had specially made golf shoes which were higher on the outside edges. God knows what they were like to walk with though.) and the knees point slightly inwards. In the backswing, when the hips can move no further to the right, they start to turn -- in fact this is what causes them to turn. Similiarly at the end of the backswing / start of forward swing, the hip slide to the left causes the left hip to turn when it can slide to the left no more. There should be do conscious thought of turning the hips, in either direction.

Of course it's possible to overdo the Slide if one is not playing from the insides of the feet, in fact it's almost guaranteed.

I seem to be talking to myself :) The Tomasello videos appear to support my hypothesis. In Alignments (up, down, in, out, backward, forward) he clearly says that having reached the Top, people want to go Forward, and in doing so, will create the OTT move, whereas they should be going Down and Out, these two 'vectors' together producing the Forward motion of the ball.

As these moves are so important, dare I say it: to all golf swings, why isn't it spelled out in the Book (6th Edition is still my reference)? The only reference I can find is..

12-5-0 BASIC REQUIREMENTS Use a slow, smooth motion up-and-back, down-and-out and up-and-in the same distance in both directions and as continuously as possible.

..however shouldn't "up-and-back" be "in-up-back", and "up-and-in" be "forward-up-in" i.e. three dimensions instead of two? We are going through the ball position in both directions, aren't we?

The silence is deafening :) I'll retract that the hip slide to the right causes the the right hip to turn -- simply because in trying to emulate Tomasello's teachings, he starts the backswing with turning the right hip.

7-17 FOOT ACTION Foot Action accommodates the Knee Action resulting from the motion of the Weight Shift, and accepts the changes in the loading of the feet. The loading can shift between the inner and the outer edge of the foot but shouldn't roll the Foot over on its edge...

I guess it's only the outer edge that is being referred to here. I still believe that in practice, at least, purposely standing with pressure on the insides of the feet, is good. Wider stances permit better such feel (but narrower stances, less weightshift action, obviously). I was watching Julie Inkster on TGC who appears to have a fairly narrow stance even with the driver, and an almost imperceptable (sp?) forward weight shift.

personal house cleaning
 

Having read a lot more, and having viewed more videos, I now realise that every possible alignment and motion (well almost every) is in the Book -- which makes my former statements somewhat stupid. I guess I was originally looking for quick fixes rather than the progressive development that Homer recognised as the only way to develop or redevelop one's personal swing.

Well I have lots of time :) Actually I really have lots of time for inhouse reading and practice, but not outside practice or playing until September -- as last Sunday I dislocated my replacement hip. In some ways it's a blessing in disguise.

The Warming Lens
 

Weightshift,

Without questions, there can be no answers.

You've filled your Incubator to the brim in recent weeks. :salut: Soon the chicks will begin to hatch.

Let us help you name them. :)