Lie Angles
 

When fitting clubs, what elements of the swing effect lie angle?

Thanks,

Bagger

I assume it's the plane angle.

...As well as The Left Arm Flying Wedge (#3 Accumulator) if done properly.

Too often I end up fitting players to compensate for their throwaway (horizontal wrist motion at impact). :cry:

Lie or "Lies"
 

I see the common over the top, outside in swing with a toe deep divot and to compensate they make the clubs more upright. I think the industry in general is heading in the wrong direction. I believe that flatter lies would promote a more on plane motion.

Re: Lie Angles
 

Here are some factors that influence lie angle in club fitting.

Shaft length

Shaft stiffness and deflection point

Plane of downswing motion

Left wrist action approaching impact interval

Clubface alignment at impact

May be more, but I can't think of any at the moment

Re: Lie or "Lies"
 

[quote="RickPinewild"]I see the common over the top, outside in swing with a toe deep divot and to compensate they make the clubs more upright. I think the industry in general is heading in the wrong direction. I believe that flatter lies would promote a more on plane motion.[/quote

I agree that steep downstroke plane angles require upright lie angles and sometimes downswing paths can be impossible to accomodate with adjustment of lie angle.

One approach we use in clubfitng people with severe plane/face issues is to use gadgets (carboard boxes, old shafts, etc.) placed strategically that force the player to miss them in backswing and downswing motions.

When the player can make some swings missing the barriers, we can then try to fit the lie angle.

With these players, I think it's a good idea to make one club that can be used for practice and learning (taking lessons). The fit will take place over a period ot time.

Clubfitting and it's relationship to golfer's motion is very interesting to me.


]

If The Suit Fits...Oops, It Doesn't!
 

Rick,

I note from the above that you have definite thoughts regarding Club design and from your 'profile' that you are engaged in club repair. No doubt you have sound ideas regarding the fitting of golf clubs to the average golfer and the mistakes they tend to make. Could you give us an idea as to how to best approach this business of 'Club fitting' and how to avoid the most common mistakes? Thanks!

Lie or "Lies"
 

I believe that the lie of your clubs is the most important and ignored aspect of club fitting. Most golfers swing poorly and make compensations to score as good as they do. There are more, better players than there are good ball strikers. Most manufacturers make and market their clubs to increase sales.

The trend has been longer, lighter, and more upright. In the 70’s a Wilson Staff 5 iron was 37” long, 60* lie, and 32* loft. Today a 5 iron averages 38” long (harder to hit), 62* lie (too upright), and 27* loft (harder to hit). This is my take on the subject: If the club is too long you have the tendency to hit it more towards the heel and probably hit it left. If the club is too upright you have the tendency to hit it left because the face is actually facing left. If you have less loft you have the tendency to hit it lower. So what we have is lots of low left shots.

What do you do to compensate? Of course you subconsciously aim more to the right, come over the top and pull it left and never release the power that we work hard to store up on the backswing. Then we start to hang on for dear life and in an effort to get the ball up in the air we end up with high, short, right shots or low, right, slap shots. Any way you look at it, the club head is never in position to do its job and you end up with years of frustration and constantly looking for the answer that is right in front of you.

I’m sure there are numerous instructors on this forum that will confirm that many players line up too far to the right. It seems to me that clubs should be made to specs that would encourage a better swing, imagine the results! If you set up at impact fix, this should be the proper lie for your shorter irons. Measure the distance from the ground to the top center of the shaft. Using a simple math formula for a right triangle you can determine what the correct lie should be. For a 35” wedge and 31.5” from the ground to the top center of the shaft, the lie should be 64.16*, settle for 64*. As the club length increases, and assuming the impact fix position remains the same height from the ground, the lie will decrease to 56* for a 38” club length.

At this point you should make some upright adjustment to compensate for the club shaft bowing downwards, this can vary with the flex and can best be determined on an individual basis. I would suggest that all instructors adjust their students lie angle to correspond to their impact alignments and then teach them to swing with a properly fitted lie. Why would you want to learn to shoot a crooked arrow?

Re: Lie or "Lies"
 

I know squat about clubfitting, but that made a heck of a lot of sense to me. FANTASTIC!!!!!

May have to make the trip from Tater Town to see you. I have form forged TA3's can they be bent?

Thanks for the info!

Bucket

Low Lefts, Lies And What To Do About It
 

Wow. Just the kind of independent thinking I figured you'd give us. Thanks, Rick!

Lie or "Lies"
 

12 piece.
Most clubs can be bent a little, maybe 2 degrees. I have an antique loft and lie machine which makes it hard to bend some clubs. I have always used very soft forged clubs that are easy to bend. Currently KZG cavity backs. Find someone in you area with a Mitchell machine, they can bend anything. Just take your seven iron and bend it about 2* flatter and go practice. You may be surprised. The specs for TA3 seven iron are 36.75" long, 36* loft, 62* lie. They may be different if you've been using them since 1999. They may also be different because tolerances are very loose and quality control is not. Measure your impact position club height and tell me the club length and I will tell you the correct lie. Rick

Re: Lie or "Lies"
 

[
I know squat about clubfitting, but that made a heck of a lot of sense to me. FANTASTIC!!!!!

May have to make the trip from Tater Town to see you. I have form forged TA3's can they be bent?

Thanks for the info!

Bucket[/quote]


Richard,

Grey has a Mitchell machine and so does my assistant who I trust immensely. In fact he just reshafted my Nike blades with the MCC Apache 115 shafts, changed the lofts and lies, and regripped them to my stringent specs. He did an absolutely marvelous job!

EC

I agree with Rick that most irons today have lie angles that are too upright.

Mizuno irons have flatter lie angles than most manufacturers. When I bought the Mizuno Pro II irons back in 2000, my ballstriking improved immediately.

Lie or "Lies"
 

That is correct, Mizuno is consistanly 1* to 3* flatter than most others. I would bet that the vast majority of golfers play with off the shelf clubs and never even consider the possibility that the lie could be causing so many problems.

Toe Down
 

I've noticed with high swing speeds, as the clubhead rolls into impact the toe of the clubhead can be bent downward, the amount of downward bend "appears" to be dependent on clubshaft flex characteristics.
I know very little about clubfitting, but curious if this has any effect on lie.

Bagger

Lie or "Lies"
 

Bagger
Yes it does, that is why I said that, "As the club length increases, and assuming the impact fix position remains the same height from the ground, the lie will decrease to 56* for a 38” club length. "At this point you should make some upright adjustment to compensate for the club shaft bowing downwards, this can vary with the flex and can best be determined on an individual basis." The more the clubshaft droops, the more upright you need to adjust the lies.

Time for new glasses
 

Thanks Rick!

Time for new glasses.

Bagger

Rick

I understand Clubhead Droop, but isn't it true that the current day shaft, at least to hear the manufactures talk, have all but eliminated most of this?

Also isn't it true for Hitters, clubhead droop is smaller than for swingers?

In addition what consideration is given to hitting the ball and having separation prior to the club coming into contact with the ground? This seems to increase the lattidute of clubhead lie range that would be acceptable.

I don't see how kickpoint comes into the forumla for Lie Angle and haven't really seen anything by top clubmakers (though I have only read and studied a few) consider this to be part of the Lie Angle. Can you address this?

Thanks

If you eliminate droop, throw the Golfing Machine out with it!!!!


Yikes!!


Droop IS the sweetspot plane!!!

I don't think so..

UST, GAT, Tom Wishon all are advocating that the design of the shaft couple with it's orientation can reduce 'clubbhead droop'. Can they eliminate it, probably not, so poor word choice upon my part, but they can minimize it.

Explain you statement Brian and how it covered in TGM? (Droop is the sweetspot plane? What happen to longitudal center of gravity of the golf club?)

Lie or "Lies"
 

Martee: My comments are in larger font.
I understand Clubhead Droop, but isn't it true that the current day shaft, at least to hear the manufactures talk, have all but eliminated most of this? I don't know all the claims of shaft makers, but if the droop is affecting your lie angles, you can adjust for it.

Also isn't it true for Hitters, clubhead droop is smaller than for swingers?
This may also be true probably because of shaft flex, again, adjust it to suit you ball flight once you are swinging on the correct plane.

In addition what consideration is given to hitting the ball and having separation prior to the club coming into contact with the ground? This seems to increase the lattidute of clubhead lie range that would be acceptable. Your ball flight will also be a telltale sign of incorrect lie angles.
I don't see how kickpoint comes into the forumla for Lie Angle and haven't really seen anything by top clubmakers (though I have only read and studied a few) consider this to be part of the Lie Angle. Can you address this? I also have not seen any info regarding kick point and lie, bottom line is: adjust your lie to suit your ball flight once you have established a correct swing plane. Always start with your shortest clubs and work toward the longer ones. The shorter and stiffer the shaft, the less droop. There is no need to complicate this, simply spend the time to be sure all your clubs are working for you and not against you.

Can't shaft flex effect Lie angles?

For instance my iron shafts were too weak and i needed the iron heads flattened by 2* for a 2* flat fit.

Same irons, stiffer shafts and i only needed 1* flat.

Same day testing...so did the "less droop" of the stiffer shafts effect that?

---

Thanks

Yes Jim.

No Marty.

Possibly, but could have the orientation made a difference? Type of shaft.

I asked the question merely cause of what some shaft manufactures are saying along with guys like Tom Wishon. They do believe clubhead droop can be minimized to some extent.

1* droop difference between shaft flexes is what I read you are saying. Does that really IYO opinion make any significant difference in you shots? Having a 1* difference in lie angle, seems most shots played may be experiencing this just from the normal lie found on the course.

Homer seem to think that unless the toe or heel touched the surface prior to separation then the lie angle would be okay.

Just trying to understand where this is coming from and has it been tested out.

Brian, thanks again for another indepth, insightful answer. :(

I guess it will remain a mystery.

I'd say from my own experiences on severe lies that shaft flex does help the droop. Just this weekend I was playing a course with some big slopes and noticed that the irons I had in my bag (aussie blades) drooped much more than the ones I usually play (mac 1025's) - the interesting thing was that they in 'theory' have the same shafts, s300's but the macs are newer - not sure if DG's have changed much between 96/7 and 2003/4 but the s300's in the macs are a much more 'stable' shaft than the older aussie blades. I had to compensate more with the aussie blades (which I of course found out the hard way, hitting a sidehill shot way too much on the toe, cost me a shot darnit).

The aussies are more upright though, but a touch - and they certainly 'feel' like a softer shaft than the macs. The swingweights are different though, so its hard to really judge.

Lie or "Lies"
 

Swingweight, length and also how the shafts were installed can have an effect. Comparing the shaft frequency can help determine the stiffness.

It made a large difference on where i hit the ball on the clubface. Due to the droop i was hitting many shots out on the toe. I kept seeing "toe down" divots. So i bent them upright and still toe down divots and toe area impact.

Finally got with my fitter and all my lies were too upright. 2* up from the new standard, and it took 2* flat to get impact in the center.

With his shafts which were stiffer, it only required 1* flat.

I built a set of Wishon clubs and bent them 2* upright. After getting used to hitting I have come to realize that they are now too upright and need to be flatter, so the experiment goes like you say, do the PW and go from there. I agree that too much may be taken into droop. I FLO all my shafts and with graphite, especially with a pronounced spine, the FLO plane is usually 90* to the spine so in orienting shaft to head the FLO plane is at 3 to 9 o'clock and spine at 12 o'clock, to minimize droop, but no matter what lie angle will need to be adjusted accordingly, as every swing is different, flex etc. So to me impact tape, sole tape, lie board on the range will tell, but we must get this right. I like the way you measure and triagulate to get an initial lie angle then go up as needed. Ill remenber that, thanks.

I would also venture to say that how you load the shaft, the amount of lag, and the release you use will effect it.

Lies can change...as your swing changes
 

About 4 years ago I got fitted and was told I needed 3 degrees upright. I played my Ping i3's that way. Then I went to Mizuno MP 29 blades and just automatically asked that they be bent 3 degrees upright.

My swing has been changing since discovering TGM. I just switched to a new set of Titleist 704 CB's. I figured I would need to bend them as well, but after hitting them for 2 weeks I don't think I'm going to bend them.

Why? Because my divots are shallow and square. Way back when, my divots were toe-heavy. The only time I get a toe-heavy divot now is if I come over the top.

So I think I will keep my lies standard and just stop coming over the top. :D