Lie Angles

[Bagger Lance]

When fitting clubs, what elements of the swing effect lie angle?

Thanks,

Bagger

[mgjordan]

I assume it's the plane angle.

[drewitgolf]

...As well as The Left Arm Flying Wedge (#3 Accumulator) if done properly.

Too often I end up fitting players to compensate for their throwaway (horizontal wrist motion at impact).

[RickPinewild]

I see the common over the top, outside in swing with a toe deep divot and to compensate they make the clubs more upright. I think the industry in general is heading in the wrong direction. I believe that flatter lies would promote a more on plane motion.

[tfdanos]

When fitting clubs, what elements of the swing effect lie angle?

Thanks,

Bagger

Here are some factors that influence lie angle in club fitting.

Shaft length

Shaft stiffness and deflection point

Plane of downswing motion

Left wrist action approaching impact interval

Clubface alignment at impact

May be more, but I can't think of any at the moment

[tfdanos]

[quote="RickPinewild"]I see the common over the top, outside in swing with a toe deep divot and to compensate they make the clubs more upright. I think the industry in general is heading in the wrong direction. I believe that flatter lies would promote a more on plane motion.[/quote

I agree that steep downstroke plane angles require upright lie angles and sometimes downswing paths can be impossible to accomodate with adjustment of lie angle.

One approach we use in clubfitng people with severe plane/face issues is to use gadgets (carboard boxes, old shafts, etc.) placed strategically that force the player to miss them in backswing and downswing motions.

When the player can make some swings missing the barriers, we can then try to fit the lie angle.

With these players, I think it's a good idea to make one club that can be used for practice and learning (taking lessons). The fit will take place over a period ot time.

Clubfitting and it's relationship to golfer's motion is very interesting to me.


]

[Yoda]

I see the common over the top, outside in swing with a toe deep divot and to compensate they make the clubs more upright. I think the industry in general is heading in the wrong direction. I believe that flatter lies would promote a more on plane motion.

Rick,

I note from the above that you have definite thoughts regarding Club design and from your 'profile' that you are engaged in club repair. No doubt you have sound ideas regarding the fitting of golf clubs to the average golfer and the mistakes they tend to make. Could you give us an idea as to how to best approach this business of 'Club fitting' and how to avoid the most common mistakes? Thanks!

[RickPinewild]

I believe that the lie of your clubs is the most important and ignored aspect of club fitting. Most golfers swing poorly and make compensations to score as good as they do. There are more, better players than there are good ball strikers. Most manufacturers make and market their clubs to increase sales.

The trend has been longer, lighter, and more upright. In the 70’s a Wilson Staff 5 iron was 37” long, 60* lie, and 32* loft. Today a 5 iron averages 38” long (harder to hit), 62* lie (too upright), and 27* loft (harder to hit). This is my take on the subject: If the club is too long you have the tendency to hit it more towards the heel and probably hit it left. If the club is too upright you have the tendency to hit it left because the face is actually facing left. If you have less loft you have the tendency to hit it lower. So what we have is lots of low left shots.

What do you do to compensate? Of course you subconsciously aim more to the right, come over the top and pull it left and never release the power that we work hard to store up on the backswing. Then we start to hang on for dear life and in an effort to get the ball up in the air we end up with high, short, right shots or low, right, slap shots. Any way you look at it, the club head is never in position to do its job and you end up with years of frustration and constantly looking for the answer that is right in front of you.

I’m sure there are numerous instructors on this forum that will confirm that many players line up too far to the right. It seems to me that clubs should be made to specs that would encourage a better swing, imagine the results! If you set up at impact fix, this should be the proper lie for your shorter irons. Measure the distance from the ground to the top center of the shaft. Using a simple math formula for a right triangle you can determine what the correct lie should be. For a 35” wedge and 31.5” from the ground to the top center of the shaft, the lie should be 64.16*, settle for 64*. As the club length increases, and assuming the impact fix position remains the same height from the ground, the lie will decrease to 56* for a 38” club length.

At this point you should make some upright adjustment to compensate for the club shaft bowing downwards, this can vary with the flex and can best be determined on an individual basis. I would suggest that all instructors adjust their students lie angle to correspond to their impact alignments and then teach them to swing with a properly fitted lie. Why would you want to learn to shoot a crooked arrow?

[12 piece bucket]

I believe that the lie of your clubs is the most important and ignored aspect of club fitting. Most golfers swing poorly and make compensations to score as good as they do. There are more, better players than there are good ball strikers. Most manufacturers make and market their clubs to increase sales. The trend has been longer, lighter, and more upright. In the 70’s a Wilson Staff 5 iron was 37” long, 60* lie, and 32* loft. Today a 5 iron averages 38” long (harder to hit), 62* lie (too upright), and 27* loft (harder to hit). This is my take on the subject: If the club is too long you have the tendency to hit it more towards the heel and probably hit it left. If the club is too upright you have the tendency to hit it left because the face is actually facing left. If you have less loft you have the tendency to hit it lower. So what we have is lots of low left shots. What do you do to compensate? Of course you subconsciously aim more to the right, come over the top and pull it left and never release the power that we work hard to store up on the backswing. Then we start to hang on for dear life and in an effort to get the ball up in the air we end up with high, short, right shots or low, right, slap shots. Any way you look at it, the club head is never in position to do its job and you end up with years of frustration and constantly looking for the answer that is right in front of you. I’m sure there are numerous instructors on this forum that will confirm that many players line up too far to the right. It seems to me that clubs should be made to specs that would encourage a better swing, imagine the results! If you set up at impact fix, this should be the proper lie for your shorter irons. Measure the distance from the ground to the top center of the shaft. Using a simple math formula for a right triangle you can determine what the correct lie should be. For a 35” wedge and 31.5” from the ground to the top center of the shaft, the lie should be 64.16*, settle for 64*. As the club length increases, and assuming the impact fix position remains the same height from the ground, the lie will decrease to 56* for a 38” club length. At this point you should make some upright adjustment to compensate for the club shaft bowing downwards, this can vary with the flex and can best be determined on an individual basis. I would suggest that all instructors adjust their students lie angle to correspond to their impact alignments and then teach them to swing with a properly fitted lie. Why would you want to learn to shoot a crooked arrow?

I know squat about clubfitting, but that made a heck of a lot of sense to me. FANTASTIC!!!!!

May have to make the trip from Tater Town to see you. I have form forged TA3's can they be bent?

Thanks for the info!

Bucket

[Yoda]

Wow. Just the kind of independent thinking I figured you'd give us. Thanks, Rick!