I Had an Amazing Practice today!!!! But I still have a quesetion.

[ndwolfe81]

Today on the range was the best practice I believe that I have ever had. I start with about 30 mins of basic and aquired motion, then I went into 8iron 6iron 2iron and driver, around 300 balls total. The sound and flight were so amazing. But I still have a question.

I was monitoring my right shoulder and how it loaded my PP#4. Then alittle later I was monitoring the place that my left shoulder was positioning its self as I came into impact. It felt like it was moving up and back some, and it felt like my right shoulder moving properly was causing this.

Just wanted to know if anyone else has had this feeling, or if this is dicussed somewhere in the greatest book ever?

[jim_0068]

To get people to move their right shoulder downplane correctly one of the greatest sayings ever is to get your LEFT SHOULDER "up and back."

Because if you can do that, the right shoulder will go down and out.

[Yoda]

To get people to move their right shoulder downplane correctly one of the greatest sayings ever is to get your LEFT SHOULDER "up and back."

Because if you can do that, the right shoulder will go down and out.

I agree that, in practice and drill, players should be aware of the return of the Left Shoulder to its Impact Fix Location. But...

Do you drive the Left Arm (and Club) by pulling the Left Shoulder back to its Fix Location?

Or do you drive it by thrusting the Right Shoulder -- against the Left Arm and its #4 Pressure Point -- toward the Ball?

In my forty years of golf, I have never heard or read of a great Champion describing the Left Shoulder as his Driving Force into Impact.

Right Knee.

Yes.

Right Hip.

Yes.

Left Hip.

Yes.

Right Shoulder.

Yes.

Right Arm.

Yes.

Right Hand.

Yes.

But never...

Left Shoulder.

The Secret of Golf -- Clubhead Lag (6-C-2-0/A) -- is all about 'Dragging the Wet Mop' -- unrelenting, inert Clubhead Lag Pressure -- through Impact.

And despite the fact that the 'Wet Mop' -- the Left Arm, Club and its Dead Weight Inertia -- hangs off the Left Shoulder, you don't Drag it 'back-handed' with your Left Shoulder and Arm. Instead, the uncoiling Left Side is led by Hip Action (7-15) that "throws" the Right Shoulder Down Plane. This welds the Left Arm against the side of the chest -- the #4 Pressure Point -- and Delivers the Assembled and Loaded Power Package into Release.

Swingers use Centrifugal Force Body Power -- rotational Momentum Transfer -- to sustain this Clubhead Drive through Impact. Hitters use Right Triceps Muscle Power.

[ndwolfe81]

I agree that, in practice and drill, players should be aware of the return of the Left Shoulder to its Impact Fix Location. But...

Do you drive the Left Arm (and Club) by pulling the Left Shoulder back to its Fix Location?

Or do you drive it by thrusting the Right Shoulder -- against the Left Arm and its #4 Pressure Point -- toward the Ball?

In my forty years of golf, I have never heard or read of a great Champion discussing the Left Shoulder as his Driving Force into Impact.

Right Knee.

Yes.

Right Hip.

Yes.

Left Hip.

Yes.

Right Shoulder.

Yes.

Right Arm.

Yes.

Right Hand.

Yes.

But never...

Left Shoulder.

The Secret of Golf -- Clubhead Lag (6-C-2-0/A) -- is all about 'Dragging the Wet Mop' -- unrelenting, inert Clubhead Lag Pressure -- through Impact.

And despite the fact that the 'Wet Mop' -- the Left Arm, Club and its Dead Weight Inertia -- hangs off the Left Shoulder, you don't Drag it 'back-handed' with your Left Shoulder and Arm. Instead, the uncoiling Left Side is led by Hip Action (7-15) that "throws" the Right Shoulder Down Plane. This welds the Left Arm against the side of the chest -- the #4 Pressure Point -- and Delivers the Assembled and Loaded Power Package into Release.

Swingers use Centrifugal Force Body Power -- rotational Momentum Transfer -- to sustain this Clubhead Drive through Impact. Hitters use Right Triceps Muscle Power.

Yoda I do agree with you. It was like my left shoulder just kept getting put into the perfect spot, but my right shoulder was causing it. For some reason I was just picking up on the feeling, of where my left shoulder was going to.

After studying TGM more and more, I have changed my setup, my tripod is finally centered, no more tilted head. I also now setup at a true impact fix and then move into the adjusted address position with centered tripod bent left and flat right. I think switching to this has allowed me to get a feel for impact more and my alignments are much better now.

My biggest misunderstanding is plane now. I really don't know what to look for in a video, I filmed today, and on my backswing about waist high the club was under the shaft plane (slighty) that scares me. I guess I need more right forearm pick up and less flanning.

But the one that really is getting me is the sweet spot plane, I saw where hunter put up the swinging stick man and I tried to draw those lines on the computer today. My sweet spot didn't stay on that line on the way down (It was under it) but at impact I was money babe, nice small draw.

I will be calling in the next month or so to come see you again, and we will get squared away.

[Yoda]

I will be calling in the next month or so to come see you again, and we will get squared away.

Great, Nathan.

See you then!

[birdie_man]

I like using "left shoulder up and back" but left hip I think can be a good key too.

[mrodock]

I've read both Ernie Els and Nick Faldo say the left shoulder is the primary driver of their downswing. I'm sure they've said and felt other things at times, but Faldo is in his book and Els is in a Golf Digest article. Whether they were being truthful or not. . .

Matt

I agree that, in practice and drill, players should be aware of the return of the Left Shoulder to its Impact Fix Location. But...

Do you drive the Left Arm (and Club) by pulling the Left Shoulder back to its Fix Location?

Or do you drive it by thrusting the Right Shoulder -- against the Left Arm and its #4 Pressure Point -- toward the Ball?

In my forty years of golf, I have never heard or read of a great Champion describing the Left Shoulder as his Driving Force into Impact.

Right Knee.

Yes.

Right Hip.

Yes.

Left Hip.

Yes.

Right Shoulder.

Yes.

Right Arm.

Yes.

Right Hand.

Yes.

But never...

Left Shoulder.

The Secret of Golf -- Clubhead Lag (6-C-2-0/A) -- is all about 'Dragging the Wet Mop' -- unrelenting, inert Clubhead Lag Pressure -- through Impact.

And despite the fact that the 'Wet Mop' -- the Left Arm, Club and its Dead Weight Inertia -- hangs off the Left Shoulder, you don't Drag it 'back-handed' with your Left Shoulder and Arm. Instead, the uncoiling Left Side is led by Hip Action (7-15) that "throws" the Right Shoulder Down Plane. This welds the Left Arm against the side of the chest -- the #4 Pressure Point -- and Delivers the Assembled and Loaded Power Package into Release.

Swingers use Centrifugal Force Body Power -- rotational Momentum Transfer -- to sustain this Clubhead Drive through Impact. Hitters use Right Triceps Muscle Power.

[Yoda]

I've read both Ernie Els and Nick Faldo say the left shoulder is the primary driver of their downswing. I'm sure they've said and felt other things at times, but Faldo is in his book and Els is in a Golf Digest article.

In my post you've quoted, I said that, in practice and drill, the player should be aware of the return of the Left Shoulder to its Impact Fix Location. In fact, establishing the Stroke's Radius and the precision Left Shoulder-to-Ball Location is the primary purpose of the Address Routine of 2-J-1. If the Feel of that return assists the player in his Expanded Translation (of precision Mechanics to Feel per 3-E) -- that is, if it becomes a "key factor" in producing a "simplified Feel" of his Total Motion -- then, by all means, he should use it. But...

Regardless of Feel, it is the Start-Down Thrust of the Lagging Right Shoulder -- the "fastest and farthest moving component of the Pivot" that "actually transmits the Pivot motion to the Arms" (7-13). It is the Lagging Right Shoulder that reconciles both Pivot and Power Package by "moving with great precision of thrust, speed, direction and distance (2-H). It is the Lagging Right Shoulder that is "thrown" by the Hip Action (7-15) and thus "supplies the initial acceleration of the Downstroke" and the drive of the Left Arm and Club toward Impact. This is the very basic #4 Power Accumulator of 6-B-4-0/A/B/C.

And its Maximum Power and Maximum Trigger Delay are produced by using the Hip Action (7-15) of either the Standard or Delayed Pivot. This Action increases the Right Shoulder Turn's Pivot Lag, thus enabling its Maximum Thrust against Pressure Point #4 (where the Left Arm contacts the side of the Chest).

It is this last #4 Pressure Point that the good player Feels as he unwinds into the Ball. You mention Nick Faldo. Just recently he was featured on The Golf Channel in their program Playing Lessons With the Pros. I heard him repeatedly talk of "turning his chest" through the Ball. Now, whether he felt he was actuating this Rotation (Body Power per 2-M-4) with his Left Shoulder or his Right -- or with his Feet or his Knees or his Hips -- matters little...as long as that Rotation is accomplished. But the last thing to move in that Pivot Train (6-M-1) is the Right Shoulder, and that is what is producing the Pressure he is 'Feeling' when its 'from behind' Thrust welds his Left Arm against his Chest.

So, it is this #4 Pressure Point (10-11-0-4) that constitutes the Active Direct Drive of the Left Arm and Club, and it is Loaded by the Right Shoulder Turn's Thrust -- not the Left's -- per 6-B-4 and 7-19-3. In fact, in earlier editions, Homer Kelley specifically advised players seeking Maximum Power and Trigger Delay (of the #4 Accumulator) to "discourage any tendency toward an Arm Swing by either inactivating the muscles of the Left Shoulder or by temporarily overpowering them with the Thrust of the [right] Shoulder Turn." [Bold emphasis added.]

Now, Matt, you have stated that both Faldo (in his book) and Els (in a Golf Digest article) "say the left shoulder is the primary driver of their downswing." I am always interested in what the great players Feel in their Golf Strokes, and I would very much appreciate it if you would supply those specific references.

[dkerby]

Don't get me wrong. I certainly do not disagree with what
has been said. What I would like to present is a lesson that
I once took from a leading Instructor with TGM insight.

We were trying to determine which would be better for me,
Hitting or Swinging. The idea was that in either Hitting or
Swinging, that the right shoulder should be closer to the
target than the left shoulder at follow through. First, I was
to try hitting and see if I could get the right shoulder
closer to the target. I had trouble. Then the second step
was to try and get the right shoulder closer to the target
by pulling the left shoulder back to pull the right shoulder
through. This worked and I hit the ball 20 yards further.
Interest lesson.

[mrodock]

In Faldo: A Swing for Life he states, "Having turned my upper body and shifted my weight on to my right side in the backswing, it is that subtle moment of separation as the left knee and left shoulder re-rotate towards the target that sets the downswing sequence in motion. . . My reward is then the freedom to rotate my body hard through the ball as I release the clubhead towards the target" (124-125). "In all my years studying the swing, the one solid conclusion to draw is that every great player starts his downswing with a subtle reflexive action in his lower body - usually the left foot or left knee. My own feeling is that my left knee and left shoulder move toger, and that signals the move towards the target. In that split-second my body is actually moving in two directions at once. . . I get a great sense of freedom as I rotate my body through the shot. My body is the engine generating the power, while my arms and hands transmit that energy down through the clubshaft to the ball. At the very last second, my right shoulder, right hip and right knee fire and add thrust through impact - where speed matters the most. When I practice I often say to myself: left side clears, right side drives. On a good day I feel that I punish the back of the ball with my right shoulder - that's my power source" (133). WOW, I stand corrected on Faldo (shows what I can forget in 9 years), now I'll find that Golf Digest.

Golf Digest September 1997, Ernie Els: On the first move down, separate the left shoulder from the chin. This swing thought will help you fire the right side through the shot, transferring your weight while staying quiet with your lefts. More important, separating the left shoulder from the chin allows you to sling the arms down in front of the body, with the club traveling at the greatest speed possible and on the proper plane" (63).

I apologize for my earlier inaccurate comments, I have always had a difficult time thinking of more than one thing in the downswing, so I must have read about the left shoulder playing the role of initiator and thought it drove the downswing. In any case, this is the way I used the instruction years ago.

[Bold Emphasis by Yoda]

Thanks, Matt. I appreciate the time you took to research these quotes and to type them out for us all. This is the kind of dedication and sharing that takes everybody to a new level of understanding.