I am not a new member to this Forum - long time reader. Having read some of the posts I do believe there are a lot of golf swing experts here and, therefore, would like to share with my biggest problem and ask for some advices. I am not very familiar with the TGM nomenclature, neither I am in a possession of The Yellow Book, therefore, please forgive me my plain golf language here. BTW, I have posted it here, in the Swingers' Room, since my left part of the body is dominant and if someone asks me about my swing feel - I'd say it's a pulling motion.
My problem is that I simply can't play a fade shot (especially with mid- and short irons) or better said can't obtain a neutral in-to-in swing pattern; I have a strong inside-out swing path (between 3 and 8 degrees) and relatively quick swing tempo (ca. 0.9-1.15 sec depending on the club); my clubhead speed is rather serious (ca. 100-105 with the driver and ca. 85-90 mph with my 5 iron); I play non-offset irons with correct lies. My normal swing with a square or even slightly open face resuts with a draw (sometimes too large one, sometimes a push-draw), opening the stance results in still in-to-out pattern and a strong pull-draw (even worse). Opening the clubface more (up to 10 degrees) causes usually a weak straight push and it's not so comfortable since it's not natural for me to play irons with so open a face. My ball position for short irons is left of the midlle of the stance (below the logo of the shirt).
I was trying to achieve (on purpose) an OTT move and found it very difficult for me; practically, I am able to hit only the driver with a very slight out-to-in swing pattern without a serious endeavour; what is even more interesting, the driver is the only club that I can control and can play either draw or fade on request provided my swing is much slower and much less powerful than usually (on purpose again). I have recently changed my grip from strong to neutral and from interlock to overlapping one, but alas the tendency remained.
Here is my YouTube video of my recent swing:
Would be very grateful for sharing with any ideas, thank you in advance. I don't have problems with closing of the clubface, neither with flipping hands - too much DS path from the inside is my all-time problem. I play of 12 hcp...would be in single digits if I have this problem solved. Thanks again gor your help.
Surprized no one has welcomed you yet... so Welcome to the forum....
The thing about the geometry of the clubhead orbit is that with a proper impact its travel should be taken downwards and just as importantly outwards.
That means that the impact is not an in-to-in affair.
If you imagine a big hoola hoop on an incline - your lowest point will be very close to when your left arm and clubshaft are all directly downwards from the left shoulder. Since the ball position should be taken prior to this point it means it is still traveling outwards to the right by a few degrees....
Controlling the ball flight is more a result of clubface control through what is known as a rhythm or hinge action. Also various procedures naturally produce different hinge actions......
Your stroke is like alot you see. You have alot of good things there for sure obviously been playing a while but however lacks a few fundamental concepts which really aren't stressed enough in the world of golf digest and its ilk....lol Your stroke could do with what is called a finish swivel - learn to rotate your left arm around a flat left wrist after impact rather than allowing a bending motion. Im not very convinced your not flipping it either....you might be best to train this with some chips/pitches....some high rough, impact bags....whatever takes your fancy...lol you do this and learn that the secret to this is to maintain the lag pressure (the heavy feeling in your hands) all the way down past impact. Your balance also looks a lil bit suspect. So theres three really important things to work on....
Surprized no one has welcomed you yet... so Welcome to the forum....
The thing about the geometry of the clubhead orbit is that with a proper impact its travel should be taken downwards and just as importantly outwards.
That means that the impact is not an in-to-in affair.
If you imagine a big hoola hoop on an incline - your lowest point will be very close to when your left arm and clubshaft are all directly downwards from the left shoulder. Since the ball position should be taken prior to this point it means it is still traveling outwards to the right by a few degrees....
Controlling the ball flight is more a result of clubface control through what is known as a rhythm or hinge action. Also various procedures naturally produce different hinge actions......
Your stroke is like alot you see. You have alot of good things there for sure obviously been playing a while but however lacks a few fundamental concepts which really aren't stressed enough in the world of golf digest and its ilk....lol Your stroke could do with what is called a finish swivel - learn to rotate your left arm around a flat left wrist after impact rather than allowing a bending motion. Im not very convinced your not flipping it either....you might be best to train this with some chips/pitches....some high rough, impact bags....whatever takes your fancy...lol you do this and learn that the secret to this is to maintain the lag pressure (the heavy feeling in your hands) all the way down past impact. Your balance also looks a lil bit suspect. So theres three really important things to work on....
Mathew,
Thanks for the welcome and for your post. I also found it surprising that noone answered my post before after more than 100 views...started to think that I have posted my question in a wrong room
I am not saying that all three things you mentioned are worth my concern, however, what I lack most is a good info or advice what to do to diminish the downswing path from the inside. I'd be grateful if someone here could enlight me what TGM does recommend only in this particular situation now. My intention is not to rebuild my swing totally this year (maybe next winter).
Hi Darius, you live in Europe? House looks bit continental Europe?? Edit - ah yes ... i see POLAND... cool Europe TGM spreads East... communism in reverse!! Traditional instruction is harder to break down that Berlin Wall!!!...ANyway...
Not always easy to tell from videos where the path of the clubhead is but you seem sure that it is in-to-out and stays out... ie. the clubhead may appear to be going straight down the target line (steering)... see what the book says... ( underlined the bits relevant to you, IMHO)
"3-F-7-A. STEERING
is the Number One malfunction - The Bent Left Wrist and Clubhead Throwaway. Any or all of the following faults during Impact may need to be adjusted out - holding:
1. The Clubface square to the Target Line
2. The Clubhead on Target Line
3. The Clubhead on a level or upward path
A very successful and anti-steering therapy is an exaggerated "inside-out" Cut Shot, per 10-5-E. (Study 2-J-3, 2-N and 12-3-39.) You always Swing along the Plane Line but not always along the Flight Line. So Learn to dismiss the Flight Line. Depend on Clubface alignment for direction control (2-J). In fact, learn to execute all Plane Line Variations (10-5) to remove all uncertainty from your Computer (14-0).
3-F-7-B. QUITTING
slows or stops the Hands during Release and is almost always a semi-conscious maneuver to change the Down-and-Out Clubhead Path (2-J-2) to an On-Line Path through Impact, on the mistaken assumption that this is the purpose of the "Wrist Roll" (2-G) and/or "Wrist Bend" (6-D-3) and that such Clubhead control is, somehow, automatic Clubface control. That is a distorted interpretation of Sequenced Release (4-D). This results in:
1. a Bent Plane Line (Steering 4-D-0);
2. a shortening of the Swing Radius (loss of effective Mass);
AND, depending on Impact Hand Location, results in either:
3. a "Down Only" Clubhead Path (deep Divot or "Fat" Hit 1-L-14);
4. an "Up-and-In" Clubhead Path (Topped Shot 2-J-2).
You see how steering and quitting are linked....
If the clubhead is going off plane then how are you squaring the clubface...
options are strong grip, flipping ( bending left wrist at impact) or pivot ( well not pivot for you i suspect because your are off plane)
need to check your grip first... is your grip forcing you to play an abnormal plane line?
Do you have face on video of your swing? check for flipping?
Matthew is saying that IMPACT is an in-to-out experience with the clubhead going down and out fractionally beyond impact AND THEN coming up and inwards.
The clubhead will actually do this if you have a Flat Left wrist and swing "on plane"... ie. the whole of the shaft lies an a flat , inclined plane throughout this time.
Get a piece of MDF board ( 1 metre by 50 cm) and use this as a mini plane poard...see what "on plane" feels like.... remember that TGM asks that you do the correct mechanics and learn your own individual feel from that... If you do this you will probably find that you feel your hands much closer to your bodyjust past impact... i think this is what people call swinging left... you are swinging right too much...
Well , see how you go, remember that i advise only as a professional surgeon and not as a professional golfer!! Would you let Tiger woods operate on your eye....? So take advice from the pros but at least think about what i said...but it is not gospel!
Last edited by golfbulldog : 03-17-2007 at 08:16 AM.
Please do not feel that you have to rebuild your swing by considering some changes to your current swing. With some understanding of some of the basics of TGM (swing plane, role of the hands & pivot) you will see improvements and not risk a complete meltdown in your game. It does take time and practice...I was willing to make changes to a swing I have had for a long time that just was not getting any better...and now I am beginning to see that it has been worth stopping, learning and applying and changing...and it has been pain free. These guys on this site really know what they are talking about ...good luck on your journey whatever you consider. We are all working to build a non-compensating swing that makes the best use of the laws of physics and geometry. Homer Kelley was a genius who left us the keys to understanding how the golf swing works. The book itself is impossible to understand without guidance and direction...and its here at this site for the cost of your time.
Please do not feel that you have to rebuild your swing by considering some changes to your current swing. With some understanding of some of the basics of TGM (swing plane, role of the hands & pivot) you will see improvements and not risk a complete meltdown in your game. It does take time and practice...I was willing to make changes to a swing I have had for a long time that just was not getting any better...and now I am beginning to see that it has been worth stopping, learning and applying and changing...and it has been pain free. These guys on this site really know what they are talking about ...good luck on your journey whatever you consider. We are all working to build a non-compensating swing that makes the best use of the laws of physics and geometry. Homer Kelley was a genius who left us the keys to understanding how the golf swing works. The book itself is impossible to understand without guidance and direction...and its here at this site for the cost of your time.
Thanks a lot. Although I am not convinced if classifying a human action in thousands of pieces makes sense in the view of molecular microchanges happening in the human organism, I regard the TGM School as very creative.
I just want to try what TGM has to offer as a help with a too inside DS path problem. In simple words. If the knowledge of the Yellow Book is absolutely necessary - I'll consider purchasing and studying it next winter, too less time before new season now.
Hi Darius, you live in Europe? House looks bit continental Europe?? Edit - ah yes ... i see POLAND... cool Europe TGM spreads East... communism in reverse!! Traditional instruction is harder to break down that Berlin Wall!!!...ANyway...
Errr...you are not strong in history of 20th century, huh ? if we Poles only could we would have sent communism back to East 60 years ago...we did help to send it a bit later, but better later than never...
Not always easy to tell from videos where the path of the clubhead is but you seem sure that it is in-to-out and stays out... ie. the clubhead may appear to be going straight down the target line (steering)... see what the book says... ( underlined the bits relevant to you, IMHO)
"3-F-7-A. STEERING
is the Number One malfunction - The Bent Left Wrist and Clubhead Throwaway. Any or all of the following faults during Impact may need to be adjusted out - holding:
1. The Clubface square to the Target Line
2. The Clubhead on Target Line
3. The Clubhead on a level or upward path
A very successful and anti-steering therapy is an exaggerated "inside-out" Cut Shot, per 10-5-E. (Study 2-J-3, 2-N and 12-3-39.) You always Swing along the Plane Line but not always along the Flight Line. So Learn to dismiss the Flight Line. Depend on Clubface alignment for direction control (2-J). In fact, learn to execute all Plane Line Variations (10-5) to remove all uncertainty from your Computer (14-0).
3-F-7-B. QUITTING
slows or stops the Hands during Release and is almost always a semi-conscious maneuver to change the Down-and-Out Clubhead Path (2-J-2) to an On-Line Path through Impact, on the mistaken assumption that this is the purpose of the "Wrist Roll" (2-G) and/or "Wrist Bend" (6-D-3) and that such Clubhead control is, somehow, automatic Clubface control. That is a distorted interpretation of Sequenced Release (4-D). This results in:
1. a Bent Plane Line (Steering 4-D-0);
2. a shortening of the Swing Radius (loss of effective Mass);
AND, depending on Impact Hand Location, results in either:
3. a "Down Only" Clubhead Path (deep Divot or "Fat" Hit 1-L-14);
4. an "Up-and-In" Clubhead Path (Topped Shot 2-J-2).
Sorry mate, I know you had best intentions and I am extremely grateful, but I am not a TGM guy and I don't have the book. The numbers and letters, unfortunately, can't say me anything...
You see how steering and quitting are linked....
If the clubhead is going off plane then how are you squaring the clubface...
options are strong grip, flipping ( bending left wrist at impact) or pivot ( well not pivot for you i suspect because your are off plane)
My grip is not strong, I am not flipping hands - although you can suspect it from my video since I don't use a crossover release type.
need to check your grip first... is your grip forcing you to play an abnormal plane line?
Do you have face on video of your swing? check for flipping?
Matthew is saying that IMPACT is an in-to-out experience with the clubhead going down and out fractionally beyond impact AND THEN coming up and inwards.
The clubhead will actually do this if you have a Flat Left wrist and swing "on plane"... ie. the whole of the shaft lies an a flat , inclined plane throughout this time.
Get a piece of MDF board ( 1 metre by 50 cm) and use this as a mini plane poard...see what "on plane" feels like.... remember that TGM asks that you do the correct mechanics and learn your own individual feel from that... If you do this you will probably find that you feel your hands much closer to your bodyjust past impact... i think this is what people call swinging left... you are swinging right too much...
Yes, Brian Manzella has already given me an excellent advice with his Towel Plane Board. It seems to be a good drill with it.
Well , see how you go, remember that i advise only as a professional surgeon and not as a professional golfer!! Would you let Tiger woods operate on your eye....? So take advice from the pros but at least think about what i said...but it is not gospel!
Thanks for your help. I do appreciate it. My comments in red colour above.
If you could also get a video up with a face-on view of your swing I would be much more certain of my diagnosis.
Thanks,
Matt
__________________
"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
Not meaning to offend poland - i know that your country suffered deeply during 20th century... but just meant that TGM started in USA and spreads East to Poland... Communism started in East and spread West towards you!
I drive past a Polish war memorial on the way to London many times
"Za milosc, mlodosc i dobra awanture" or something like that!!
Back to golf...remember...
Initial ball direction is mainly due to clubface at impact/seperation and not swing path through impact... you have still got clubface issues if you hit draws and push draws with a consistent in-to-out path...
Checking clubface issues starts with grip and flip...we need more face on images....
If you get to the stage with your grip changes that you hit straight pushes then work on the swing path more ... and Matthews swivel to hold flat left wrist beyond follow through.
Initial ball direction is mainly due to clubface at impact/seperation and not swing path through impact... you have still got clubface issues if you hit draws and push draws with a consistent in-to-out path...
Checking clubface issues starts with grip and flip...we need more face on images....
Yes, initial ball direction is mainly (85% or so) due to the clubface angle at impact. That's why I mention about my excessive draws and push draws and not about pull-hooks. As I said in my 1st post to play a push is not a big problem - it's just enough to open the clubface more, more or less the same angle as is the angle of my inside DS path.
However, if you close the clubface relative to the DS path angle - you will obtain a draw always. Fade could be obtained only when the clubface is open relatively to the DS path. I need to learn how to diminish my inside angle of DS path since trials to play fade with, say, 6 degrees of the inside DS path and 10 degrees of clubface open angle is ridiculous.
I'll try to post my FO view of the swing tomorrow.
Hybrid Mode
