Basic Motion Questions

[danny_shank]

Thanks for your interest Amen Corner.

In answer to your questions (i'm a swinger by the way):

- I have enough extensor action to feel a slight stretch in my left arm. I apply it through pp #1.
- I'm right handed and play right handed
- I've done a lot of work on my grip and i pretty sure it's good although i've never had that verified by an AI. When gripping with my right i just focus on PP #3 and PP #1 being inline straight down the right side of the shaft towards the sweet spot.
- I concentrate on pp #3 going back, then #2 and #3 going down.

With regards to whats moving what in my basic motion, i drag it back with the right arm and then pull it down with my left.

To give you a bit more info as to where i feel the problem may lie. When playing (i.e not basic motion) i feel like my downswing is initiated by my feet, whether it be a drive, pitch, chip or putt. But when doing basic i feel because theres no pivot, the radius is shortened to my left shoulder. This makes the change of direction feel quick, sharp, tense (all things i associate with playing badly) instead of the lazy and effortless feeling i get when playing well. I also feel like my balance is disrupted slightly.

Thanks for the help,

Danny

[golfbulldog]

Danny, I agree with the difficulty in concepts that you describe. If one truly executes a swinging basic motion ZERO pivot shot it has to have a left arm pull feel. Remember that the strictest definition of hitter and swinger ( so that it can be applied to basic as well as total motion) is of "pulling" - drag loading shaft ( as opposed to the hitters "push" - drive loading).

That means that basic motion swinging is still pulling but without the pivot motion ( as you describe from feet upwards - just like Percy Boomer so eloquently describes).

Summary:-
Basic motion has same alignments as total motion through impact BUT the feel for Basic motion swingers will be different when compared with total motion swingers( different power source)- both still "swing" because of drag load and "pulling".

Hitters have same alignments and power source in Basic and total motion.

I have never had this confirmed but this is the only way I can rationalise it - I await correction from learned colleagues!

Maybe the Chip -pitch ( as used by Ben Doyle who almost exclusively teaches swinging) is the better option for a swinger's basic motion. This would enable the swingers basic motion to match the total motion in both feel and alignments.

For swingers to get the pivot dragging left arm feel you need to have a pivot. MAybe thats why Ben does chip -pitch? See that video in gallery where Ben and Lynn demonstrating basic motion - Ben stresses that Pivot takes the hands forward...
I have often felt that Homer's desire to academically unify hitting and swinging with concepts of equal importance for both is, perhaps, a misjudgement. ( emoticon for heresy??! but i will expand if questioned on a seperate thread)... but i read on another thread that the first edition did not formally isolate hitting and swinging ... it grew later... and he was planning to formally seperate teh two patterns in two different books... to me that makes sense...

Hitting is a less pivot dominated stroke ( generally) and hence is suited to zero pivot stroke basi motion... as you describe the majority of a swingers strokes ( acquired and total motion) wil be pivot -driven hands controlled.

[Mike O]

I have often felt that Homer's desire to academically unify hitting and swinging with concepts of equal importance for both is, perhaps, a misjudgement. ( emoticon for heresy??! but i will expand if questioned on a seperate thread)... but i read on another thread that the first edition did not formally isolate hitting and swinging ... it grew later... and he was planning to formally seperate teh two patterns in two different books... to me that makes sense...

I think that was in reference to a post that I made- just so I can sleep at night - I would not say that he was planning to separate the two patterns into two books- I believe he mentioned it as a passing thought- something that he might have to do , or might want to do. My assumption is that he might have done it IF A) He found it important enough, B) Had the time, C) Had the money. And as things played out- he didn't have B and never had C.

But I did understand what you were saying- so ignore my nitpicking - and back to the regular scheduled show.

[golfbulldog]

I think that was in reference to a post that I made- just so I can sleep at night - I would not say that he was planning to separate the two patterns into two books- I believe he mentioned it as a passing thought- something that he might have to do , or might want to do. My assumption is that he might have done it IF A) He found it important enough, B) Had the time, C) Had the money. And as things played out- he didn't have B and never had C.

But I did understand what you were saying- so ignore my nitpicking - and back to the regular scheduled show.

That's right - sorry i could not remember my source - shame he didn't have more B but glad that he had G, O, L, and F

[Mike O]

That's right - sorry i could not remember my source - shame he didn't have more B but glad that he had G, O, L, and F

Agreed- a special gift that guy!

[Amen Corner]

Thanks for your interest Amen Corner.

In answer to your questions (i'm a swinger by the way):

- I have enough extensor action to feel a slight stretch in my left arm. I apply it through pp #1.
- I'm right handed and play right handed
- I've done a lot of work on my grip and i pretty sure it's good although i've never had that verified by an AI. When gripping with my right i just focus on PP #3 and PP #1 being inline straight down the right side of the shaft towards the sweet spot.

- I concentrate on pp #3 going back, then #2 and #3 going down.

With regards to whats moving what in my basic motion, i drag it back with the right arm and then pull it down with my left.

To give you a bit more info as to where i feel the problem may lie. When playing (i.e not basic motion) i feel like my downswing is initiated by my feet, whether it be a drive, pitch, chip or putt. But when doing basic i feel because theres no pivot, the radius is shortened to my left shoulder. This makes the change of direction feel quick, sharp, tense (all things i associate with playing badly) instead of the lazy and effortless feeling i get when playing well. I also feel like my balance is disrupted slightly.

Thanks for the help,

Danny

Danny,
Regarding your right hand grip. Here is A WAY of checking it. Put the club on a table with the clubface facing "down". Now put your right hand on top of the grip and push the club against the table with pp #1 and #3.

I would suggest that, since it is only 2 feet back and 2 feet through, you only use the right hand, i.e. pull back and push through. And using pp#1 and perhanps #3.Stand in front of a mirror and LOOK. The only thing that should move is the arms.

Your grip pressure should be FIRM but FLEXIBLE. This could help you obtain the smoothness you are looking for.

Regarding your total motion, have a look at 6-M-1.

Looking forward to your comments.

[danny_shank]

Thanks for your thoughts golfbulldog, made interesting reading. Nice to know i'm not going completely loopy

Amen Corner i tried your right hand grip drill and not much really happened. The clubface was just trapped against the table.

I would suggest that, since it is only 2 feet back and 2 feet through, you only use the right hand, i.e. pull back and push through. And using pp#1 and perhanps #3.Stand in front of a mirror and LOOK. The only thing that should move is the arms.

I tried the above and it was smoother and more controled than my other basic motion. But it felt like a definite hit not a swing.

Regarding your last comment about total motion. I read 6-M-1 and took it to mean in the context of my over accelerlation issues that i'm effectively shortening my radius too early, which is why it feels so quick. It's all about maintaining lag in the lower body and then allowing the accumulators to release naturally.

[Amen Corner]

Thanks for your thoughts golfbulldog, made interesting reading. Nice to know i'm not going completely loopy

Amen Corner i tried your right hand grip drill and not much really happened. The clubface was just trapped against the table.



I tried the above and it was smoother and more controled than my other basic motion. But it felt like a definite hit not a swing.

Regarding your last comment about total motion. I read 6-M-1 and took it to mean in the context of my over accelerlation issues that i'm effectively shortening my radius too early, which is why it feels so quick. It's all about maintaining lag in the lower body and then allowing the accumulators to release naturally.

Danny,

I am sorry for the incomplete instruction regarding the righthand grip. I was in a hurry going out but wanted to post the thread.

When you put the right hand on the club and press with both pp#1 and 3, then take up the club and you should have a ok right handgrip. Modern teaching (which I was guilty to also before I found TGM)teaches out a grip where at the best only pp#3 could push the club against the table.

Regarding the basic motion - I could be wrong about this, if that is the case,I am ready to listen and learn.

There cannot be any pulling by the left arm in basic motion, since it is only 2 feet back and 2 feet through
This statement is made with following in mind. The short distance and per 1L 7/8/10.

What you are doing is building the structure of your swing. In this case the 3D impact and taking it to the end of followthrough,i.e both arms straight.

Now continuing towards the total motion:

When you have this solid base under control, go on to stage 2, where you start as in basic motion. Zero out the pivot, shoulder turn and wrist action first. Take the right forearm to the level to the ground position and hit some balls. When you are comfortable with it add shoulder turn and hit balls. Keep on the same procedure and adding hip turn, desired wrist action and lagloading. Having come this far and controlling it, you continue up to total motion.

Now, this is only A WAY of doing it.

Ok, I am going to bed now and will log on (my) tomorrow to see if there is a reward on me

[golfbulldog]

Bump... any new thoughts guys....?

[Amen Corner]

Bump... any new thoughts guys....?

I saw your post on "the other site".

Your inputs as well as the others have been in the incubator for a while.
I have been reading the book regarding the pivots involvement in Basic Motion. My conclusion, wrong or right, is that there IS/WAS a reason for Homer to propose the Zero Pivot in Basic Motion.

Here comes some quotes from the book:

"without the Key of Educated Hands per Chapters 4 and 5, more information only means more confusion."
"The Hands are the “Command Post” for all Feel processing."
" Educate your Hands (9-0) to execute the Delivery Path "
"key to control of the Golf Club is Educated Hands."

Well you get it.

With a zero pivot, you must educate your hands.

Don´t you think that Homer would have recommended a little pivot in the basic motion, if he thought that IT(the pivot) would be to an advantage for the process of educating the hands?

It is a whole other story if there are ANY tourplayer that chips/pitchs with zero pivot.

But trust me on this one - they have EDUCATED HANDS