Homer assumed Separation to be at Low Point but what if it isnt?

[rprevost]

The argument for why hinge action is irrelevant, as I understand it,is that the ball is on the face of the club for such a short period of time that there is no effective difference between the direction of the club face at impact and that of the face at separation. Because nothing happens between impact and separation, there is nothing that hinge action does.

In discussions with those who advocate the irrelevance of hinge action, I have asked why then does hinge action seem to make a difference that can be seen and felt in, for example, the simplest of shots (as remarked by OBLeft). The answer I received was that hinge action sets the face prior to impact, which then leads to the ball flight. Horizontal hinging tends to a closed face at impact, etc. The point that is made is that nothing significant happens during the impact interval because the time the ball and the face of the club are in contact is so short.

[Daryl]

Ok, I'm sorry if this sounds like an Innercityteacher post.

I don't have the background in 'Mechanics' to expand the subject of Horizontal Hinging as outlined and described by Homer Kelley. I can only add some personal notes that probably won't be useful to anyone that hasn't experienced Horizontal Hinging with compression.

Most of us have been to a practice range and hit different pitch shots to a green with Horizontal and Angled Hinging. The effects of the two different Clubface motions through the Impact interval are easily identifiable. In fact, it's so simple that almost anyone here can teach almost any golfer to use a full roll feel or half roll feel through the ball. And after a few attempts, he can apply either procedure and witness the results for himself (including innercityteacher).

If anyone thinks that the above, is Angled and Horizontal Hinge Action "Ala Homer Kelley", then I've got some really bad news for you. It is and it isn't.

With Horizontal Hinging, the ball travels with the Clubface for the split second that they're in contact. The Impact Point and Separation Point are the same (or almost the same). The High Pitched Click sound of nearly perfect compression results from this kind of strike along with that very heavy feel of the Ball being stuck onto the Clubface. The Rate of "Closing only", and Swing Radius seem perfectly matched and perfectly even.

I'm not saying that for 99% of all golfers that the ball doesn't roll up the face of the club before separation. I say for them, it does a lot. I've played golf with over a thousand people in the past ten years and I've only heard that kind of compression maybe 5 times. Listen to VJ Trolio hit the ball.

The Clubhead is accelerating through Impact. The Hinge Radius, although it's at the Left Shoulder for the Primary Lever, it goes way beyond that for the stroke radius because the shoulder is moving too. Homer Kelley may say that the Radius extends all the way to your Feet. In that split second, every alignment and motion is perfect.

I know maybe 3 swing Patterns. I can produce that kind of compression in only one of them. One of three. So not every Pattern is going to produce those results. I know two people that do it everyday on every shot. I know one guy that has compression with his putts. 3 foot putts too. That's freaky.

I've experienced the full meaning of Hinging, not only the feel. So, anyone who says that Hinging doesn't matter, I say great, play without it because even if you wanted it, you may never get it anyway. I'm saying that you can practice for it for ten years and not be able to produce it. It's that hard to perform perfectly. If some people just "Have it", then they don't know how lucky they are.

[innercityteacher]

Ok, I'm sorry if this sounds like an Innercityteacher post.

I don't have the background in 'Mechanics' to expand the subject of Horizontal Hinging as outlined and described by Homer Kelley. I can only add some personal notes that probably won't be useful to anyone that hasn't experienced Horizontal Hinging with compression.

Most of us have been to a practice range and hit different pitch shots to a green with Horizontal and Angled Hinging. The effects of the two different Clubface motions through the Impact interval are easily identifiable. In fact, it's so simple that almost anyone here can teach almost any golfer to use a full roll feel or half roll feel through the ball. And after a few attempts, he can apply either procedure and witness the results for himself (including innercityteacher).

If anyone thinks that the above, is Angled and Horizontal Hinge Action "Ala Homer Kelley", then I've got some really bad news for you. It is and it isn't.

With Horizontal Hinging, the ball travels with the Clubface for the split second that they're in contact. The Impact Point and Separation Point are the same (or almost the same). The High Pitched Click sound of nearly perfect compression results from this kind of strike along with that very heavy feel of the Ball being stuck onto the Clubface. The Rate of "Closing only", and Swing Radius seem perfectly matched and perfectly even.

I'm not saying that for 99% of all golfers that the ball doesn't roll up the face of the club before separation. I say for them, it does a lot. I've played golf with over a thousand people in the past ten years and I've only heard that kind of compression maybe 5 times. Listen to VJ Trolio hit the ball.

The Clubhead is accelerating through Impact. The Hinge Radius, although it's at the Left Shoulder for the Primary Lever, it goes way beyond that for the stroke radius because the shoulder is moving too. Homer Kelley may say that the Radius extends all the way to your Feet. In that split second, every alignment and motion is perfect.

I know maybe 3 swing Patterns. I can produce that kind of compression in only one of them. One of three. So not every Pattern is going to produce those results. I know two people that do it everyday on every shot. I know one guy that has compression with his putts. 3 foot putts too. That's freaky.

I've experienced the full meaning of Hinging, not only the feel. So, anyone who says that Hinging doesn't matter, I say great, play without it because even if you wanted it, you may never get it anyway. I'm saying that you can practice for it for ten years and not be able to produce it. It's that hard to perform perfectly. If some people just "Have it", then they don't know how lucky they are.

Could we start a thread called "Aligning for Perfect Compression?"

Which part of your reasonable, self-effacing post is supposed to be bad?

I think we have all been inside too long and need some 55 degree weather.

Happy New Year!

ICT

[Daryl]

What's today? January 2nd? I don't like Winter anymore. Can you imagine how awful it must be to live in Maine?

[O.B.Left]

The argument for why hinge action is irrelevant, as I understand it,is that the ball is on the face of the club for such a short period of time that there is no effective difference between the direction of the club face at impact and that of the face at separation. Because nothing happens between impact and separation, there is nothing that hinge action does.

In discussions with those who advocate the irrelevance of hinge action, I have asked why then does hinge action seem to make a difference that can be seen and felt in, for example, the simplest of shots (as remarked by OBLeft). The answer I received was that hinge action sets the face prior to impact, which then leads to the ball flight. Horizontal hinging tends to a closed face at impact, etc. The point that is made is that nothing significant happens during the impact interval because the time the ball and the face of the club are in contact is so short.

Thanks for sharing rprevost. So this is an old topic of discussion I take it? Im guessing there is some data supporting this contention. Itd be interesting to see. I can see how its "irrelevant" to say Trackmans calculations. That it isnt needed. But does that make it irrelevant to ball response? Not necessarily. There must be a lot of things , compression for instance that isnt measured directly. I dont know , Im a newbie to trackman, I like it though. But Im still thinking there is a practical application for the golfer, making Hinging anything but "irrelevant".

Im no scientist but the thing that seems odd to me is that, brief though the impact interval is , the ball is completely squished and rebounds......that we all agree on Id imagine. So why is not enough time for the ball to roll up the face a little bit more for the layback inherent with Vertical Hinging? The ball seems to get a lot done in that little bit of time , why not react to layback too?

My guess is that what may be irrelevant for Trackman measurements has been extrapolated into a general irrelevance and probably with some malicious intent towards Homer........but remember that Homer didnt invent Hinge action he only identified it. Hinge Action is as old golf itself Id say. Actually given the cor of a feathery it might have been even more "impactfull" in the early days.

[Daryl]

If "rprevost" doesn't want to understand hinge action I wish he would go somewhere else and tell someone who gives a sh*t because I could care less what he thinks.

We were having a good discussion on Low Point and I'm really pis*ed off about some asshole who enters the thread and just wants to fu"* around.

[O.B.Left]

Daryl am I missing something....... rprevost seemed anything but what you accuse him of being.

Seems to me if somebody wants to call hinge action irrelevant then they could possibly Steer themselves to golf death.... There's guys Ive heard who say they love Moes swing but dont like his "flashing face" (horizontal hinging). You take that away from Moe and you dont have Moe anymore Im thinking. Pipeline was straight , saw him myself at least 40 or 50 times..... How can a guy that straight have a "flashing face"?

[Daryl]

Daryl am I missing something....... rprevost seemed anything but what you accuse him of being.

Seems to me if somebody wants to call hinge action irrelevant then they could possibly Steer themselves to golf death.... There's guys Ive heard who say they love Moes swing but dont like his "flashing face" (horizontal hinging). You take that away from Moe and you dont have Moe anymore Im thinking. Pipeline was straight , saw him myself at least 40 or 50 times..... How can a guy that straight have a "flashing face"?

What's the difference between relating what other have said or saying it yourself? Why doesn't he ask the people who claim hinge action doesn't exist. Why doesn't he read 2-E and 2-G or do a search and read up on it? Why break into a perfectly good thread on Low Point? Is his contribution only going to be to ask challenge questions? Give me a break.

[rprevost]

If "rprevost" doesn't want to understand hinge action I wish he would go somewhere else and tell someone who gives a sh*t because I could care less what he thinks.

We were having a good discussion on Low Point and I'm really pis*ed off about some asshole who enters the thread and just wants to fu"* around.

I apologize to Daryl for any offense. I was responding to what I thought was the topic under discussion, namely, the assessment of the relevance of hinge action. Obviously, I was mistaken.

A little background, I took a lesson from Yoda about two years ago. It was a great lesson. He introduced me to the Robert McDonald drills and explained to me how to keep the club on plane. This summer that lesson came to fruition when I achieved my quest of over 20 years to break 80 (I shot a 78 ). For that achievement, I am indebted to Yoda and all the TGM regulars on this site.

Since that lesson, I have been a regular reader of this site. I rarely contribute because I don't really know that much. I am a bogey golfer. One of the reasons I come back to this site is that in my experience, Yoda has been a model of civility. In any case, your language was a bit harsh. I am tempted to borrow a quote of Yoda's from his remarks in an earlier, different thread, "I deserved better", but I won't.

[O.B.Left]

rprevost the Robert McDonald stuff is great isnt it? I believe Lynn picked it up from his time with Paul Bertholy. Lynn moves forward and backward but always towards the truth about things I have found, however old it may be or however new.