Im listening as always....City......great question in regard to Mr Doyle and McHatton. Does pure CF, True Swinging forfeit EA? I'd say no , but I dont know what those TGM greats teach. I admire them both profoundly whatever the answer.
The McHatton Doyle west coast part of the TGM tree certainly believes in extensor action. Yoda's post #21 stating that the arms "must swing freely from the shoulders" would please Greg a lot. Greg asks his students to let the arms hang freely at address. Then he grabs your hands and lifts them up. If your head and thorax come up he points out that your arms were not hanging freely. If you argue he will ask "weren't you looking at the ground at address, then where are you looking now"?. With relaxed arms the instructor lifting them should not cause you to come up. Sometimes students don't "get it". As much as Lynn stresses MacDonald's exercises their importance it took me awhile to "get it". It is very difficult to express golf instruction in english words that correctly transmit meaning. That is why we have all of these discussion day after day, year after year with each of us looking for an "a ha" moment. Then we hope to take these words, carry them to the range and have another "a ha" moment. Then more importantly find that same feeling out on the course. Perhaps relaxed arm,s ie power package feels "heavy", "hanging".
I think it is easier for me to isolate the tricep, apply EA to stretch the left arm, and maintain the arms "swinging freely" with the right hand more on top of the shaft. I would also agree that in this position, once isolated, the tricep muscle motion feels similar to a pure tricep extension excercise which makes sense since the hands are normally positioned on top of the load and pushing down at an angle to accomplish this excercise. However, as the r/h rotates to the stronger position on the side of the shaft and I try to stretch the left arm, the tricep does not feel as if it is isolated any longer (while excercising we normally keep our "elbows in" in order to isolate the tricep muscle). In fact, as I rotate to a stronger r/h position I can't help but engage the chest and shoulders (makes sense to me as applying force from BOTH the top and side to PP#1 would seem to closely resemble a "decline" bench press-which is not intended to isolate the tricep). Does this really matter? Probably for some golfers it does and others it does not since there might still be room for the arms to swing freely even with the three slightly contracted muscle groups. If McHatton is hitting, he must eventually dial in some EA. I'd be interested to know if he has ever associated any particular grip style with achieving his arms hanging freely.
The McHatton Doyle west coast part of the TGM tree certainly believes in extensor action. Yoda's post #21 stating that the arms "must swing freely from the shoulders" would please Greg a lot. Greg asks his students to let the arms hang freely at address. Then he grabs your hands and lifts them up. If your head and thorax come up he points out that your arms were not hanging freely. If you argue he will ask "weren't you looking at the ground at address, then where are you looking now"?. With relaxed arms the instructor lifting them should not cause you to come up. Sometimes students don't "get it". As much as Lynn stresses MacDonald's exercises their importance it took me awhile to "get it". It is very difficult to express golf instruction in english words that correctly transmit meaning. That is why we have all of these discussion day after day, year after year with each of us looking for an "a ha" moment. Then we hope to take these words, carry them to the range and have another "a ha" moment. Then more importantly find that same feeling out on the course. Perhaps relaxed arm,s ie power package feels "heavy", "hanging".
What a great post . Thanks David.
I love your bit about the freedom of movement at the arm shoulder connection. That is a must in my book as without it the Pivot and the Arms would tend to travel in the same direction! Most likely in the direction of the Shoulders.
See Force Vectors 2-N-1 if any of you guys are confused by all of this. The Arms and Shoulders do not travel in the same direction in Startup!
How does Mr McHatton employ Extensor Action? Does he turn it on or dial it up after the Lagging Takeaway?
I love your bit about the freedom of movement at the arm shoulder connection. That is a must in my book as without it the Pivot and the Arms would tend to travel in the same direction! Most likely in the direction of the Shoulders.
See Force Vectors 2-N-1 if any of you guys are confused by all of this. The Arms and Shoulders do not travel in the same direction in Startup!
How does Mr McHatton employ Extensor Action? Does he turn it on or dial it up after the Lagging Takeaway?
Regards
I went to the indoor range, tonight, and tried all sorts of components. BTW all I know of Mr. McHatton is what I've seen on You Tube and read here.
I tried very loose wrists and arms and kept dragging the club into my foot!
I tried Standard Address with a Lagging club while I rotated my right hip and then I preserved the Lag and mashed the ball -115 yard PW -55 mph swing speed according to the radar.
I tried a Standard Address with stiff Flying Wedges with loose wrists trying to feel Mr. Hogan's "banded" arms without banding the arms. Pivot-Pivot when I felt my wrists really stretch. 121 yards PW -58 mph.
I don't know what Daryl, OB and Yoda know, so I'm sure I'm leaking power everywhere but the shots were straight on the shot meter or sometimes classified as a "Pull-Draw."
I played with my Flip camera-man I need to loose weight! I also need a tripod!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
I tried a Standard Address with stiff Flying Wedges with loose wrists trying to feel Mr. Hogan's "banded" arms without banding the arms. Pivot-Pivot when I felt my wrists really stretch.
Omigosh, City. This is just way too much!
You now are officially in The Game. There is no escaping!
The fact that nobody outside this thread can understand what in the Hell you are talking about -- and the fact that WE all do (and love you for it!) -- is a measure of your progress.
Im listening as always....City......great question in regard to Mr Doyle and McHatton. Does pure CF, True Swinging forfeit EA? I'd say no , but I dont know what those TGM greats teach. I admire them both profoundly whatever the answer.
Again , great question. For a flyers fan.
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa.
CF has nothing to do with EA.
Shoulder Turn Takeaway does not mix with EA.
EA functions to create and Maintain the Flying Wedge Alignments from Start-up to Full Extension (Including Magic of the Right Forearm).
EA functions to create and Maintain the Flying Wedge Alignments from Start-up to Full Extension (Including Magic of the Right Forearm).
So, it's a mistake on my part to suggest that the TGM West Coast office would lessen EA to get there syrupy smooth backswing. Now, you'll recognize, I hope, my lack of worry over asking dumb questions.
We all understand EA is crucial and that EA does not vary with the club.
So let me see if I can follow with a worthwhile observation/question or two in this neighborhood.
RFT and Tracing the Base-line of the Plane are important. Don't they necessitate the extension of both Flying Wedges? (Sort of rhetorical, here)
If both Flying Wedges are firmly extended, doesn't that allow the wrists to be "soft?" And doesn't that mean that the EA is already "baked-in" to the Flying Wedges? (Isn't that where Mr. Hogan most likely got that "both arms banded" feeling, which we don't really do?)
My goal is to be on Plane and swing with maximum LAG in a repeatable fashion. I think EA is crucial as is LAG. I'm just wondering how they all fit together.
Peace and Love until the next Flyers game! I'm really stuck on Michael Vick, too. Is he now a redemptive figure or just a careful and cynical PR job?
I love my dogs.
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
EA functions to create and Maintain the Flying Wedge Alignments from Start-up to Full Extension (Including Magic of the Right Forearm).
EAsy there Einstein, easy.......
I said I thought you could True Swing with EA. Im merely asking if Mr Doyle and Mr McHatton employ it, teach it? I dont know.
From my personal experimentation .........in the O.B. Lab and think tank center at the local golf dome ....I personally have to dial EA down when going full monty on the CF swing with Float Loading. Not off but down. Now that might just be me given my limitations and lack of training with that type of swing. I do think I could learn how to employ EA and let the Right Elbow cock the left wrist on the way down......gonna do some more work on that one........Id put your helmets on if you're within shankable reach of my experiments but I wanna learn that move. Maybe Ill get Yoda to show me that one when next we meet.
D, when you say "CF has nothing to do with EA"? Isnt EA artificial CF? Or when you say CF do you mean "clubhead force"? You know like in 2-C.
City as an aside , and I do recognize how averse you are to segues so I apologize in advance.....
Given you studies into "swinging the hands" vs "swinging the clubhead" would you say that Mr McHatton and maybe even Mr Hogan (check out the oh so beautiful little pitch shots he's hitting in the Hogan in Mexico the Magical Swing of Ben Hogan video) are Swinging the Clubhead during their languid Lagging Takeaway motions?
I have been goofing with "swinging the clubhead" on the backswing and "swinging the Hands" on the way down......... something to be said for it Ill tell ya.
I swing the clubhead Back and Down for a lot of pitch shots , high soft shots , it goes nicely with cut shots , bumping the flange under the ball etc kind of an up near low point spanking of the ground under the ball with the bounce exposed. But I do go back and forth while hitting wedge shots between swinging the head and the hands on the way down......two different ball flights, compressions.
Id never swing the clubhead on the way down with a driver say but on the way back? Maybe... Whats the difference between a Lagging TAkeaway and Swinging the clubhead anyways? Its purely experimental right now but this seems like an appropriate venue to discuss this given Mr McHattons silky smooth flowing motion. I dunno what he does, not saying he does swing the head.
-- is a measure of your progress. 
Hybrid Mode
