Physics

[Trig]

Originally Posted by brianmanzella

Hogan (and other pros) DO NOT START HIPS MOVING WHILE THE CLUB IS STILL GOING BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The club goes back (loads) BECAUSE THE HIPS start.

By "HIPS MOVING" and "HIPS start", I hope you mean turning rather than laterally moving.

Nicklaus - "My lower body starts forward while the club is still going back."

Moving laterally to the left while the club is still going back will load the shaft.

I will just jump in and say, there are many ways to load the club. Not everyone loads at the top, which is what you are describing I believe.

And we shouldn't probably confuse "which part moves first" with "where does most of the power come from?".

For example, Yoda's first move is a lateral shift of the lower body to "take out the slack". But his lower body is not the source of his power.

[MizunoJoe]

"Not everyone loads at the top, which is what you are describing I believe."

I didn't say everyone does that, only that IF you do that, it WILL load the shaft.

I can't speak for Yoda, but I can speak for myself and I can repeat what Hogan and Nicklaus said - hips move shoulders, shoulders move arms, arms move hands, hands move club.

[MBCpro]

MJ,

Well said. Pivot Lag anyone?

todd

[Golfie McG]

OK let's test a few things here. The following notions are solely based upon Swinging.

Why would anyone want to take slack out of the machine? Hmmm could it be so that efficient transfer of motion can occur between lower and upper body? The rotation of the lower body can be the driver for upper body rotation. Hopefully everyone understood my previous rear wheel drive comment in this thread. Lower body rotation is the source of power for almost all tour pros. Observe the relative openness of hips to shoulders at impact. Note the relative openness of torso to the target line. Edit: Do not be fooled by the relatively square impact shoulders. End edit . And if anyone believes that upper body effort produces this effect, think of the 60s dance craze "The Twist". In a slight modification, stretch your arms out and rotate them horizontally. Note the tendency for opposite spin of the hips.

Just because the lower body feels stable does not mean that it is not a primary power source. In fact it should feel exactly the as the Pivot must be completely trained and absolutely controlled. Proper technique is what allows a controlled (and seemingly effortless) lower body rotation to propel the ball a long way.


Golfie

[EdZ]

As with Hogan's right knee move - when you take the 'slack' out, you have in a very real way "lengthened" the lever - in fact at both arms straight I can often literally feel the 'full line' of the train - from my right foot, all the way through my body, to impact. Supporting impact along the 'entire' train. A good drill is to move from impact fix to the finish with 'high hands' - trying to get your hands as far away from your right ankle as you can, such that you have a bit of 'Saturday Night Fever' - a diagonal line from your hands to your right ankle.

Choo, chooo...... all aboard! Drive that train - from the ground up, just like a pitcher does.

[MizunoJoe]

MBCpro said, "Pivot Lag anyone?"

Precisely, the first link in what Hogan called "the chain action".

[MizunoJoe]

Golfie/Ed,

Yes, why take up slack unless the tautness is needed for some reason. Now just what could that reason be? Let's see what Hogan says - "he(the golfer) wants the mid-section of his body to be tightened up. As the hips turn back to the left, this turning motion increases their tension, IT IS THIS INCREASED TENSION THAT UNWINDS THE UPPER PART OF THE BODY." The caps are by Hogan, not me.

[Burner]

Golfie/Ed,

Yes, why take up slack unless the tautness is needed for some reason. Now just what could that reason be? Let's see what Hogan says - "he(the golfer) wants the mid-section of his body to be tightened up. As the hips turn back to the left, this turning motion increases their tension, IT IS THIS INCREASED TENSION THAT UNWINDS THE UPPER PART OF THE BODY." The caps are by Hogan, not me.

I really cannot take seriously all this stuff regarding tension of the lower body causing the upper body to move and am greatly surprised that, in these enlightened times, anyone else does.

It is possible for most half fit guys to turn their shoulders back through 90* without moving their hips from a line parallel to the target line. You telling me that because I have not moved my hips in order to create tension with my upper body that I cannot get my shoulders back to, and beyond, the point from which I started? If not, what the bejabbers are you telling me?

It is also possible to make a backswing with the hips wide open and still get your lead shoulder behind the ball. Tension - what tension?

Furthermore, what happens when this fictitious tension is alleviated? Does your upper body react like a spring and leap, involuntarily and only by relief from tension, into action. Damn right it doesn't. Try it.

As for Baseball Pitchers; their totally ridiculous leg in the air starting posture is just that - ridiculous; showy but ineffectual. And, before you all pile into this Limey and ask what I know about Baseball I should tell you that I have spent a lifetime playing Cricket where throwing the ball fast, flat and accurately over distances of up to 75 yards is a regular feature of the game. Curiously, I always managed it without waving my front foot in the air to initiate the process.

The Pitcher extends his arm at 90* to his starting position - shoulders square to the batter - before again pivotting his upper body back to starting point only to facilitate the catapulting motion of his arm, against his bodily resistance, to the point where he releases the ball.

As in golf, the rotational motions of the hips, shoulders et al are merely means by which the arms are conveyed to the starting point of their intended function - the far end of the swing/throw - before they reverse the process in order to allow the arms to catapult/swing, forwards/down and out and propel the baseball/clubhead at its intended target.

[Golfie McG]

Burner,

Assuming that you are a Swinger, could you tell me what you think powers your golfers flail? Please be specific about the muscles involved.

Golfie

[6bmike]

As for Baseball Pitchers; their totally ridiculous leg in the air starting posture is just that - ridiculous; showy but ineffectual. And, before you all pile into this Limey and ask what I know about Baseball I should tell you that I have spent a lifetime playing Cricket where throwing the ball fast, flat and accurately over distances of up to 75 yards is a regular feature of the game. Curiously, I always managed it without waving my front foot in the air to initiate the process.

The Pitcher extends his arm at 90* to his starting position - shoulders square to the batter - before again pivotting his upper body back to starting point only to facilitate the catapulting motion of his arm, against his bodily resistance, to the point where he releases the ball.

Ouch.
The rules of baseball requires the back foot to have contact to what is called a “rubber,” a rectangled shaped hard slab of rubber on a small hill called a mound. A pitcher does this by standing his shoulders perpendicular to the batter, not have them parallel like in cricket which is a running throw. A pitcher must make a stride - a forward motion - down and off the “rubber.” In order to make this slide off and down the hill or the mound, the front leg must lift and step forward. This becomes a weight transfer, what baseball players call “putting the hip into the pitch.” The pitchers shoulders do become square to the batter after the front leg lands after the stride. The front leg movement, the pitcher’s stride, is the weight transfer, pivot and power package of the pitch. A good pitcher does not throw flat long throws. 60 feet 6 inches. The pitch will move downward from the top of a high hand release, the wrist snap puts a spin on the ball and if well executed will “break” off its path a few inches from the batters whirling bat. Strike one!