Effects of Incorrect Lie Angle

[EdZ]

Aside from the standard wisedom of a lie angle which is too flat tending to produce an open face and one which is too upright tending to produce a closed face what common compensations do people tend to have if their lie angle doesn't fit them?

I recently re-checked my lie angles and impact location and found that my impact was consistenly slightly towards the toe in exactly the same spot. If I adjusted for a true 'center' impact, a push/push fade resulted. Sure enough, my lie angles were 2-3 degrees off once I checked on a lie board. Length of club made no difference in my case, always the same impact location.

Getting a proper lie angle and shaft makes a big difference in being able to "make the motion and let the motion make the shot".

[golfgnome]

Aside from the standard wisedom of a lie angle which is too flat tending to produce an open face and one which is too upright tending to produce a closed face what common compensations do people tend to have if their lie angle doesn't fit them?

I recently re-checked my lie angles and impact location and found that my impact was consistenly slightly towards the toe in exactly the same spot. If I adjusted for a true 'center' impact, a push/push fade resulted. Sure enough, my lie angles were 2-3 degrees off once I checked on a lie board. Length of club made no difference in my case, always the same impact location.

Getting a proper lie angle and shaft makes a big difference in being able to "make the motion and let the motion make the shot".

Great question Ed. Before I try to give you an answer I need to clarify your statement about the clubface being closed or open based on lie angle. This is a common mistake that many golfers make when clubfitting. With a clubface that is square and a lie angle that is flat the ball will go right and go left if it is to upright. This has to do more with loft than face angle. The more loft your club has the more direction deviation there will be. For example, hit a wedge and a 2 iron off of a side hill lie with the ball above your feet. The wedge will go much farther left than the 2 iron. Anyway, on with your original question.

Length and lie angle are very important when it comes to swing motion but other variables such as head design, shaft type, shaft weight, shaft deflection are just as important. Because your marks did not move when you changed lie angle and/or length I would suggest a different head design, maybe one with more offset. I would also suggest looking at shafts, stiffer or weaker. I know this sounds vague but without seeing your motion It is hard to tell.

*Non-offset heads (blades), flat lie angles, large grips, and *less loft will make the ball go more right.
*Offset heads, upright lie angles, small grips and more loftwill make the ball go more left.
*More loft, weaker shafts, lower deflection shafts, lighter weight will make the ball go higher.
*Less loft, stronger shafts, higher deflection shafts and heavier weight will make the ball go lower.
*Shaft length can have an effect on centerdness of hit in either direction.

All of the above is true when the 3 imperatives are met. Can you imagine what would happen to your golf swing if ALL of the club characteristics were off? For example, If a player has a club that is 4 degrees to flat, to heavy, to stiff, deflection to high and non-offset and they met the 3 imperatives the resulting ball flight WOULD be a low right fade or push fade. Since most players do not want to hit that shot they will start changing components in order to see correct ball flight. Most of the time bent left wrists are used to accomplish this, as is a bent plane line to the left (over the top). There is also no sustaining of lag pressure because the player is trying to throw everything he has into the ball just to get it up.

Ed let me know what your specs are and we can go farther with this. I know you have a very strong motion and the above is not an example of your swing. I would also like to know if there would be a benefit to the forum if I were to post a video explaing how equipment effects motion. I have done it for a couple of Lynn's schools and it was well received. Just a thought.

[Bagger Lance]

I would also like to know if there would be a benefit to the forum if I were to post a video explaing how equipment effects motion. I have done it for a couple of Lynn's schools and it was well received. Just a thought.

That's a no-brainer.

PM me and let's make it happen!

Thanks,

[Yoda]

I would also like to know if there would be a benefit to the forum if I were to post a video explaing how equipment effects motion. I have done it for a couple of Lynn's schools and it was well received. Just a thought.

Wonderful reply to EdZ's post, Jeff. "These guys are good!"

And bring on that video. I only wish we had one of the demo that you did with V.J. Trolio at our Old Waverly Academy this past summer. Great stuff!

[Uppndownn]

I second that emotion, bring on the pix!

[EdZ]

Ed let me know what your specs are and we can go farther with this. I know you have a very strong motion and the above is not an example of your swing. I would also like to know if there would be a benefit to the forum if I were to post a video explaing how equipment effects motion. I have done it for a couple of Lynn's schools and it was well received. Just a thought.

I would love to see a video, that would be great!

As for my current specs, standard length/lie Macgregor 1025M's, S300, although I was being fit for a set of Ping I5's (a gift I couldn't refuse). Final spec on those was a 64.5 deg lie (6 iron). That had me a 'touch' still towards the toe off the lie board, but anything more got me going left of left. S300 on those, perhaps s400 - I liked the feel of the SL, much easier to square up, but hard to keep the ball flight down. The lie angle made the biggest difference, but I sure noticed how much offset/shaft weight could adjust flight. I hit a Titleist 755 CB (I think that was it) that had more offset and a light shaft and had to really fight that one from going left, even with the same shaft/lie as other designs.

It was enlightening to see how much difference in ball flight could be made with the different specs, and how much I had been 'fighting' my current specs (which I had been fit for, but obviously didn't still 'fit'). Didn't stop me from shooting a decent back nine with the old sticks that day though (34)

[golfgnome]

Ed,
Don't fight the ball going left. That could simply be your old swing trying to make the ball go straight. What swing flaws do you have and what are you trying to correct. That club that is going left may help fix your swing, just make the ball go straight. Also, put some face tape on your club and hit it from a normal lie. The impact may be different than on the board.

[EdZ]

Ed,
Don't fight the ball going left. That could simply be your old swing trying to make the ball go straight. What swing flaws do you have and what are you trying to correct. That club that is going left may help fix your swing, just make the ball go straight. Also, put some face tape on your club and hit it from a normal lie. The impact may be different than on the board.

My main miss has almost always been a push\block, generally alignment, at times a touch under plane, and almost never, ironically, a hook. As with many who learned to play when I did, I fight firing the hips\sliding way too much, but have significantly decreased that in my pattern over the last few years as I have learned better hands control vs pivot control.

I work the ball both directions, but my stock shot is straight with a slight draw at the end with a fairly high ball flight and good compression.

The 'fighting' of the ball going left was just an experiment in extremes of clubfitting - with a club that was much too upright, a shaft too light and too offset, I was just curious to test it, making the same motion as with other specs. Just playing around to see how much ball flight was altered by specs.

The slightly toe impact was another matter though - interesting how consistently exact it was, even with different spec clubs. I'm looking forward to seeing how my new sticks work out. They should arrive in about a week.

[EdZ]

A quick update - new I5's arrived, DGS300 white dot, what a big difference over my last set. I know my old set fit well when I got them, but had not checked them on a lie board since. A difference of 2.5 degrees in lie angle between those and my new irons, a significant change. I can see now why I had plane trouble, because that was the only way I could hit clubs that didn't fit.

Note to self - check yourself on a lie board at least once a season

[Martee]

From the theoritical TGM stand point....

If separation point occurs prior to low point and low point can be adjusted so that it is forward enough that the ball is gone before the clubhead makes contact with the ground?

In 7-6 Homer and I am reading into this states that the Basic Plane Angles can be adjusted between the elbow and shoulder to accomodate the heel/toe alignment...

That seems to indicate that in my words, that the lie angle of the club should be accomodated by the golfer. To extend the logic, since a golfer rarely has a flat lie (unless on a tee) it would seem to me that a better golfer would be better off in being able to make the adjustment to the the golfer's basic plane. Granted golfer with unusual measurement, short legs and long arms or long legs and short arms, a general fitting would seem to work.