Geometry of the circle and how it applies to shot shaping .

[HungryBear]

Here's the section of the book I was trying to find .. Hook face in a more dynamic manner , if you will. Found it in Aiming Point Procedure.

The hook-face and aiming point do relate as changes in ball position away from the Straight Away Position can / must be offset by changes in the Aiming Point Procedure . Most commonly done subconsciously . "Done by feel" in common speak . Hand / eye. IMO. You get a feel for the stick in your hands , how it "swings" with a practice swing or waggle and then hit the ball having made a suitable adjustment to the feel / effort needed to make that particular lever switch ends and arrive at its Fix alignment at Impact.

In one sense, the Aiming point as a spot along the Arc of Approach is a way of tricking yourself into making the club release in a speedier , slower manner so as to reach its Fix Alignment more correctly. Done via trial and error . IMO. Leaving your driver out to the right ? You could move the Aiming Point ever so slightly back along the arc of approach to trick you into applying the force necessary to square the club quicker.. so to speak.

There are other applications too , concepts relating to Aiming Point.

This aint geometry of the circle either but we're gonna need it to understand the Homerian view of the manner in which a golfing master hits the golf ball. Uh if that's possible .. tbd. gonna need a little help from our friends.



FROM THE 6TH EDITION.

The quote from TGM- 6-E-2 -6th Edition - is one of the most confusing - has anyone put a update together that would update it- maybe it will become clearer what HK intended to say?

HB

[O.B.Left]

I dont know about an update , but I can do down date. Er back date.

Here's Abe Mitchell , from Down To Scratch , 1933.




Sounds like the Aiming Point Procedure to me. I'm thinking Homer might have read this book , maybe. Who knows? Abe touches on what Homer calls Hands to Pivot as well, IMO.

Perhaps the above was a procedure Abe discovered on his own through years of trial and error, or perhaps some other golfer gave him the procedure? Itd be an interesting thing to ask a golf historian.

But the physics behind it, the reason to do it I believe is what Homer was referring to in 6-E-2 when he said;

"And the shorter Clubs take less time to reach the In-Line condition from a given Release Point than do the longer Club, due to the Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum (6-C-2-B). "

Now alternatively or additionally IMO, you could of course CONSCIOUSLY change your Release Point ..... Release a tad earlier for the longer , slower to switch ends clubs. This is one reason why getting so nutso about Snap Release , beautiful though it is , can cause some grief IMO. Snap , Random Sweep , Full Sweep Release are necessary adjustments available to the master golfer. The physics , the reason for their employment though largely unknown to the golfer is still there. " You gotta sweep your long irons" was a common phrase back in the days of the long irons. Accomplished via ball position and release point considerations in TGM terms. Or you could just "get a feel for it" by watching others, "brush the grass". There's a sound to it too , not much divot if any etc etc.



Wanna hit your 7 iron a little higher than normal to get over a tree? Move the ball up in the stance , employ a slightly earlier Release Point or move your Aiming Point or various combinations there of. Or in common speak "sweep the ball off a forward ball positioned forward in your stance".

[HungryBear]

I dont know about an update , but I can do down date. Er back date.

Here's Abe Mitchell , from Down To Scratch , 1933.

Attachment 2944


Sounds like the Aiming Point Procedure to me. I'm thinking Homer might have read this book , maybe. Who knows? Abe touches on what Homer calls Hands to Pivot as well, IMO.

Perhaps the above was a procedure Abe discovered on his own through years of trial and error, or perhaps some other golfer gave him the procedure? Itd be an interesting thing to ask a golf historian.

But the physics behind it, the reason to do it I believe is what Homer was referring to in 6-E-2 when he said;




Now alternatively or additionally IMO, you could of course change your Release Point ..... Release a tad earlier for the longer , slower to switch ends clubs. This is one reason why getting so nutso about Snap Release , beautiful though it is , can cause some grief IMO. Snap , Random Sweep , Full Sweep Release are necessary adjustments available to the master golfer. The physics , the reason for their employment though largely unknown to the golfer is still there. " You gotta sweep your long irons" was a common phrase back in the days of the long irons. Accomplished via ball position and release point considerations in TGM terms. Or you could just "get a feel for it" by watching others, "brush the grass". There's a sound to it too , not much divot if any etc etc.



Wanna hit your 7 iron a little higher than normal to get over a tree? Move the ball up in the stance , employ a slightly earlier Release Point or move your Aiming Point or various combinations there of. Or in common speak "sweep the ball off a forward ball positioned forward in your stance".

Well! After rereading 6-E-2 slowly about 50 times word by word and your comments above I have come to a conclusion. AIMING POINT IS A RESULT of alignments NOT AN ALIGNMENT BY ITSELF. After getting alignments to a point of satisfaction the aiming point becomes a "marker".

As U said in the 7 iron paragraph HK said in 1,2,3 page 83 ( 6th edition)

That is why I have a 68* wedge and a #1 iron, for practice only, never in the bag but practice smooth release, ball position and keeping hand rhythm THROUGH impact.

You mention snap release- The cure for the "snap release" ambition is to know that the entire right forearm goes into impact and maintaining right wrist bend. U can't "flip" that assembly.

HB

[O.B.Left]

Re Aiming Point (PROCEDURE-- the looking at a spot on the Arc of Approach version, not the often subconscious help the longer levers switch ends version, or any other version . Dang theres others too! ) as an Alignment : thats an interesting question , comment. If each of our own individual Aiming Points are somewhat unique and found through trial and error then perhaps its not an alignment. More like a trick to override the physics , the COAM or is it the MOI or the CiA? FBI? I'll leave physics to those that can understand it better than I do which is just about zero.

So you got the geometry (of the circular clubhead orbit etc ) , you got the physics and you have the necessary mechanical alignments (which all relate to impact alignments). The right forearm flying wedge is for sure a mechanical , structural Alignment of the first order. Up there with the Primary Lever. Get those two working and you're on your way.

In terms of the geometry ..... Homer's was not the geometry of equations , more the geometry that could have been drawn. I'd like to see an effort to draw as much of it as we can. Draw the circles , or a portion there of (arcs), tangents, cords, angles . As seen from different perspectives . The very same entity can have a different name when seen from a different perspective. Unless you can see it IMO in drawing form , communication via words is challenged.

Perhaps some of the physics could have an associated drawing , of a model or something. Words only go so far for me on that front as well. But that would be worthy of another separate thread. If you start one I'd be happy try to draw a few things floating around in my visual memory banks. Id have to leave the heavy lifting to you and others who more in the know ..... Or perhaps it would be too much of a simplification ?

[HungryBear]

Re Aiming Point (PROCEDURE-- the looking at a spot on the Arc of Approach version, not the often subconscious help the longer levers switch ends version, or any other version . Dang theres others too! ) as an Alignment : thats an interesting question , comment. If each of our own individual Aiming Points are somewhat unique and found through trial and error then perhaps its not an alignment. More like a trick to override the physics , the COAM or is it the MOI or the CiA? FBI? I'll leave physics to those that can understand it better than I do which is just about zero.

So you got the geometry (of the circular clubhead orbit etc ) , you got the physics and you have the necessary mechanical alignments (which all relate to impact alignments). The right forearm flying wedge is for sure a mechanical , structural Alignment of the first order. Up there with the Primary Lever. Get those two working and your on your way.

In terms of the geometry ..... Homer's was not the geometry of theorems , more the geometry that could have been drawn. I'd like to see an effort to draw as much of it as we can. Draw the circles , or a portion there of (arcs), tangents, cords, angles . As seen from different perspectives . The very same entity can have a different name when seen from a different perspective. Unless you can see it IMO in drawing form , communication via words is challenged.

Perhaps some of the physics could have an associated drawing , of a model or something. Words only go so far there for me too.

Because we should think alignments not positions (HK said that) I like thos "reflective tape" sequenced photos. Hogan's coul be very informative. The "SUPER SLOW MOTION" like those of tiger are also valuable.

Am I pulling this thread away from the circle- sorry.

HB

[O.B.Left]

No the master golfer can manipulate the geometry or the physics to suit his needs. Some alignments may change as well. Ernie breaks his flat left wrist to intentionally top a skulled wedge for instance.

This is whered I like to be able to get with this thread. A place where we can discuss shot making procedures using a common vocabulary ..... Let's use Homers terms definitions. Let's try to clear up the broken telephone to the extent possible. Maybe it's impossible. Maybe Ive already muddled up too much stuff. Maybe I've already taken a wrong road and should stop. I dunno.

Also , more importantly I hope I haven't lost anyone who may have a different point of view as I try to push things forward. We can go bqck at any time Consider everything a wiki . Id like to get us to an old post I want to discuss and to discuss some more geometry perhaps .... Angle of approach.... Homer at his most obtuse. Its a geometric thing IMO. It can be drawn. What if we could discuss how better golfers hit certain shots, procedurely .... and not get bogged down in the differences we all have in the interpretation of terms. On my iPhone sorry for any typos

[O.B.Left]

I received an email saying that the model as presented would take a divot that was equal lengths on both sides of low point!!!!! Which is correct!!!!!

Then the question was why doesnt that happen to the guy on the course. And doesnt this throw the whole notion of low point as being opposite the left shoulder out the window?

Short answer is no, IMO.


That little hoola hoop with a radius that hits a golf ball is a big simplification fer sure but it can despite its limitations produce some interesting clubhead paths , more real world than what you might think at first glance. Despite its single levered , flat as a pancake 2D , fixed radius length, ways.


Here's what Im thinking guys please correct me where you see fit.

K while so while sticking to a one lever model we have seen how when the circle shifts planes , up and down the club heads path takes on a more 3 dimensional nature when viewed from behind , down the line. Dang... those words make it all sound so complicated . Lemme re phrase. If you shift the plane of the circle the actual path of the clubhead looks very unplane like when viewed from the down the line.... with a multitude of possible curved paths. Ah heck maybe I have to draw this better with some actual tracer lines of clubheads etc .

So... we saw what happened with shifting planes and shifting planes do happen. Lets take a look at what things look like when the circles centre moves . And that happens in real life too, IMO. For more relevance lets move it in its own circle which has its own centre . Namely lets move the left shoulder , the centre of the Arm Swing as HOmer called it, about the centre of the pivot located at "a place between the shoulders". Not the head , the head being less correct but making for an easier visual reference point , if you will. Enter a second lever if but momentarily ... Heck just look at the drawing.





Should the centre of the circle (the left shoulder ) move up (as it would through an actual players impact area) the low point of the clubheads actual path moves "back in the stance". Therefor the clubhead would not take an equal length divot on both sides of low point. As is the case for the human on the course.

Good thing we're in the Lab. Ive got my white coat on fer sure now , heck ive got pocket protector , goggles , clip board, martini in a beaker.... slice of cucumber as a good luck charm.

P.S. I should clean that drawing up a little as it looks like he's loading #4 angle through the shot rather than throwing it out. However , it makes no difference to the topic at hand IMO. Namely , low point is always at 6 o'clock but the clubheads actual low point may occur earlier in the stroke.

[O.B.Left]

Ah crap I was trying to stick to geometry and hit some shots with the geometry of the circle model, but since we're here ......lets talk mechanics , alignments ....maybe even centres if you want to.

K, so see how the shoulders in the drawing above move in a circular manner? If you drew a little circle with " a point between the shoulders " as the centre ... the centre of the shoulders / pivot ..... wouldnt it look like a little fly wheel? If you grabbed ahold of the right shoulder and spun it down plane wouldnt that be akin to Yoda's " spin , spin spin the flywheel"?

Lemme try drawing this.... First with the geometry of the circle model , 2D then with a more human 3D stick man from the down the line. When we go 3D we'll employ Homers Turned Shoulder Plane and a Standard Shoulder Turn ..... flat back and down plane with the Right Shoulder. The Right Shoulder takes the Hands , the #3pp the club downplane in Startdown.



Here's a Yoda post that touches upon this co-ordinated pivot leads the arms downplane in startdown deal. There are others.

CHAPTER 2 STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLE continued

PAGE 33

THE FLAIL

2-K GENERATION OF ANGULAR MOTION Angular Motion is the result of at least two divergent forces. Such as, -A. Centripetal Force (the Lever Assemblies 6-A) diverting Linear Force (Right Arm Thrust 6-B-1) into a rotating motion (Hitting 10-19-A). Or – B. Turning its axis (the Body 2-M-4) to spin a flywheel – the Lever Assemblies (Swinging 10-19-C).

CHAPTER 8 TWELVE SECTIONS

PAGE 116


FROM THE TOP

8-7 SECTION 7 – START DOWN Strictly speaking, the next six Sections are all just divisions of the Downstroke for pinpointing interim locations. This Section starts with the initial move toward Impact – the period of Shoulder Acceleration (or its equivalent – 2-H) and continues until the motion settles into its Delivery Line Path (7-23).

CHAPTER 2 STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLE continued

PAGE 29

ANGULAR MOTION

2-H SHOULDER MOTIONS

.............

“On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by titling its axis – the spine. See 7-14. In this area the Left Shoulder is helpless. The geometry of Shoulder Control deals only with Right Shoulder, for there are no guide lines for Left Shoulder control of the Right Shoulder. Therefore, variations in Right Shoulder location will vary the Left Shoulder location at Impact and, consequently, the Low Point location as well as the Angle of Approach (2-N).

[O.B.Left]

Sticking with mechanics , physics for a moment (and Im way out my league here and want to get out of here asap) ;

Websters dictionary definition:




A portion of Lynns post above :



A photo of a flywheel :




So that little wheel inside a wheel drawing.... which I theorized to look like a flyweel , needs clarification for relevance to Homers concepts about the role of the pivot in the Startdown (swingers and 4B Hitters startdown IMO, drive loading being a different deal).

Namely:

-the pivot is the flywheel.
-the pivot is heavy. Heavier than the arms . As if the flywheel in the geometry drawing is made of heavy brass.
-the pivots rotation pulls the arms in startdown , leads the hands (not the arms) down plane given that the right shoulder and the hands lie on the inclined plane together if only momentarily. Neither arm is on plane at top however.
- mechanically a heavy flywheel steadies the rate of acceleration , smooths out any oscillations about the "shaft " or rotor. The pivot aka "golfs basic rotary motion". The heavy flywheel steadies the pivots rate of acceleration .
- once set in motion , the hands and club become gyroscopic in nature . Spinning about the axis of rotation , the pivot centre.
-gyroscopic motion when present resists plane shifts . But plane shifts are possible through manipulations in the arms relationship to the pivot.... "vertical drop" prior to spinning the flywheel.
-the gyroscopic motion continues until the arms are thrown off by the slowing pivot, "momentum transfer" from the pivot to the arms. At which point the Primary Lever, the left arm and club begin to SWING about their own centre , the left shoulder, which in the both human golfer and the 2d model above is moving.
-pulling by the arms from top ruins the whole thing. Aka "hitting from the top".
-over acceleration of the pivot from top is defined as commencing at an RPM which cant be maintained . Over acceleration by definition implies deceleration of the pivot , pre mature deceleration , IMO. EArly throw off .

Bear, anybody please clean this up..... whatcha think.

Why did Homer talk of flywheels? Did it , to his mind , imply a relationship between body and arms in terms of their co-ordinated motion? Rotors and blades the rotor having a flywheel? Does this relate to his concept of Rhythm?

Does this relate to "effortless power" ?

IMO the flywheel conceptually implies that you : "spin , spin, spin the (heavy, smoothly accelerating, well centred) flywheel (pivot). But, I could be wrong.

[MizunoJoe]

So that little wheel inside a wheel drawing.... which I theorized to look like a flyweel , needs clarification for relevance to Homers concepts about the role of the pivot in the Startdown (swingers and 4B Hitters startdown IMO, drive loading being a different deal).

Namely:

-the pivot is the flywheel.
-the pivot is heavy. Heavier than the arms . As if the flywheel in the geometry drawing is made of heavy brass.
-the pivots rotation pulls the arms in startdown , leads the hands (not the arms) down plane given that the right shoulder and the hands lie on the inclined plane together if only momentarily. Neither arm is on plane at top however.
- mechanically a heavy flywheel steadies the rate of acceleration , smooths out any oscillations about the "shaft " or rotor. The pivot aka "golfs basic rotary motion". The heavy flywheel steadies the pivots rate of acceleration .
- once set in motion , the hands and club become gyroscopic in nature . Spinning about the axis of rotation , the pivot centre.
-gyroscopic motion when present resists plane shifts . But plane shifts are possible through manipulations in the arms relationship to the pivot.... "vertical drop" prior to spinning the flywheel.
-the gyroscopic motion continues until the arms are thrown off by the slowing pivot, "momentum transfer" from the pivot to the arms. At which point the Primary Lever, the left arm and club begin to SWING about their own centre , the left shoulder, which in the both human golfer and the 2d model above is moving.
-pulling by the arms from top ruins the whole thing. Aka "hitting from the top".
-over acceleration of the pivot from top is defined as commencing at an RPM which cant be maintained . Over acceleration by definition implies deceleration of the pivot , pre mature deceleration , IMO. EArly throw off .

Bear, anybody please clean this up..... whatcha think.

Why did Homer talk of flywheels? Did it , to his mind , imply a relationship between body and arms in terms of their co-ordinated motion? Rotors and blades the rotor having a flywheel? Does this relate to his concept of Rhythm?

Does this relate to "effortless power" ?

IMO the flywheel conceptually implies that you : "spin , spin, spin the (heavy, smoothly accelerating, well centred) flywheel (pivot). But, I could be wrong.

The best way to understand the flywheel is to feel it. Look at this and feel what you see.