Geometry of the circle and how it applies to shot shaping .

[Daryl]

It's what Homer Kelley is talking about.

As the Plane Angle is Steepened (as the Ball is Played back), the Clubface (because of the steeper plane) will produce a push type shot although the leading edge is square to the target. See for yourself. Do all of this at Low Point. Get a Club, square it all up, then raise the grip end but keep the leading edge square. See, the Face points to the Right. Then, re-align the Face by rotating the grip until the face will produce a re-bound down the target line.

But that's the easy part to understand. What we want to know, is how can Hinge Action sustain the line of compression so the ball will fly straight. For that we need to learn how the Right Forearm Angle of Approach, when applied to a steeper Plane Angle, will increase the closing ratio of the clubface.

1. As you play the ball back, you need a corresponding plane angle steepness adjustment.
2. Because the steeper plane tilts the Low Point Plane, a clubface adjustment (rotate grip) must be made to align the face to the Target.
3. Because the Plane is Steeper, the Right Forearm is also Steeper. So, the Right Forearm Angle of Approach will close faster, so Hinge Action can produce and sustain the line of compression.

It's really, simple. This is a big part of Chapter 2.

[innercityteacher]

It's what Homer Kelley is talking about.

As the Plane Angle is Steepened (as the Ball is Played back), the Clubface (because of the steeper plane) will produce a push type shot although the leading edge is square to the target.

1. As you play the ball back, you need a corresponding plane angle steepness adjustment.
2. Because the steeper plane tilts the Low Point Plane, a clubface adjustment (rotate grip) must be made to align the face to the Target.
3. Because the Plane is Steeper, the Right Forearm is also Steeper. So, the Right Forearm Angle of Approach will close faster, so Hinge Action can produce and sustain the line of compression.

It's really, simple. This is a big part of Chapter 2.

So with a normal width stance, and the ball played at my belt buckle, I decide to hit a 9 iron and aim 2 inches in front of the ball with Aim Point Technique to hit a shot straight to the pin. Normally, that's what will happen. I did it yesterday with all sorts of clubs. LOL! But let's say it's windy so I want to slide the ball back in my stance. Does the ball move closer to me? Do I hood or close the club face? Am I possibly the slowest golfer on the planet and in need of a new hobby?

ICT

[Daryl]

So with a normal width stance, and the ball played at my belt buckle, I decide to hit a 9 iron and aim 2 inches in front of the ball with Aim Point Technique to hit a shot straight to the pin. Normally, that's what will happen. I did it yesterday with all sorts of clubs. LOL! But let's say it's windy so I want to slide the ball back in my stance. Does the ball move closer to me? Do I hood or close the club face? Am I possibly the slowest golfer on the planet and in need of a new hobby?

ICT

Well, think of your knowledge as being ahead of 7,026,144,822 people as of this moment.

If you move the ball back, then you must include a corresponding Plane Angle Increase and grip adjustment. Grip Adjustment is for Face and target line, and Plane Angle increase is so that Hinge Action can produce a straight Shot but also that Low Point isn't moved from below the Hinge Pin.

[Daryl]

First, I'm not jacking this thread.

Ok that would imply a steepening to the clubs lie angle wouldnt it ?

Yes

A toe down deal ?

Yes

Why cant you just maintain lie angle ?

That will need you to change the Orbit of the Clubhead. It needs a much Flatter Plane and that compounds the problem of "Diversion".

Hmmm are you talking about the IN of Back , In , Up ?

Yes, In and Up is back on Orbit. If the Ball is moved back on orbit, its above the ground. Steepen the Plane Angle from the Plane Angle Reference Point until the Ball touches earth. Then you'll see that Low Point hasn't changed its location.

If thats what it is I see it , yes. Interesting.

I'm including the quote below because Homer refers to using the "Plane Angle Reference Point".

So those aligned between the Elbow and Shoulder Turn Planes have become the most widely accepted, because actually the Toe or Heel can be lifted enough safely accommodate either of the flatter or steeper Plane and therefore any listed Plane Angle reference Point (2-D-0).

I think that one question that were overlooking in this thread is "Why do longer Clubs need to be more open at Impact than shorter Clubs?". Longer clubs have longer impact intervals because of greater clubhead speed. This is directly related to sustaining the line of compression. The right elbow has less bend at Impact with shorter clubs giving much faster closing which is needed with very short impact intervals.

Steepening the Plane offers faster Clubface Closing for shorter Impact Intervals. You must see the Right Forearm Angle of Approach, then you'll visually see this in action.

Homer said (i'm going to paraphrase), that the golf club is designed for the way that "Humans" swing the club. Somewhere along the way we lost that connection. And the connection, I'm sure, is the Right Forearm Angle of Approach and the Geometry of the Circle. I Know what you're thinking, but I'm not being pig headed.

[HungryBear]

Couple of comments:
1 I do not believe the "practical range" of fore and aft ball positioning for any given club is "wide" enough to trigger these other concerns.

2. please examine Hogan's atance/ball position drawings-page 125, Five Lessons. I can't copy the drawing.
Pay particular attention to:
He moves the ball back for each club by narrowing his stance and opening his stance.
He effectivly rotates his plane line and maintains his target line when he op-ens his stance.


Sugestion - I believe HK has included this info- maybe in bits and pieces- As we find those bits and pieces we should include them here.
HB

[Daryl]

Couple of comments:
1 I do not believe the "practical range" of fore and aft ball positioning for any given club is "wide" enough to trigger these other concerns.

2. please examine Hogan's atance/ball position drawings-page 125, Five Lessons. I can't copy the drawing.
Pay particular attention to:
He moves the ball back for each club by narrowing his stance and opening his stance.
He effectivly rotates his plane line and maintains his target line when he op-ens his stance.


Sugestion - I believe HK has included this info- maybe in bits and pieces- As we find those bits and pieces we should include them here.
HB

Does the ball move back because he narrows his Stance?

Did the Ball Move aft of Low-Point? Low Point is adjustable.

Narrowing the stance with his method, will cause the right shoulder to move Forward. Its the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. Longer Clubs cause the Right Shoulder to be rotated more at Impact relative to shorter clubs. So, using his method, the release point and aiming point is similar for different length clubs. Notice that at Impact, shorter clubs have Right Forearms that are more Vertical. Therefore, the Right Forearm Wedge is becoming in-line at a much faster rate.

Opening and closing your stance will affect Hip Action. It doesn't cause a plane line rotation unless you align your shoulders to your stance after the change. Notice that Hogan used a Closed Stance while Driving but his shoulders and Swing remained squarish to the Target.

[O.B.Left]

Hey we got 55 posts in before needing to stop to clarify something... not bad. I hope we didnt lose BerntR gonna need him and HB , I know we set aside issues they have with the centres . We can come back to it though with drawings that address that specific issue. Its just not necessary to clarify that issue IMO to discuss the implications of the Geometry of the Circles orbit to ball response given plane and ball location, face angle , hinge action changes. Suffice it to say there is a constant centre and a straight Radius and therefor a circular orbit. Unhuman though this might be... It was a model a mode of examination that Homer had available to him at his time of writing . Much can be deduced from it.

D, that wasnt a jack. Do you want to pause to discuss your post #49 more or just leave it for now? I see some need for friendly debate / discussion coming on some concepts very central to shot shaping.

Bear we're heading towards Hogans stance / ball diagram from Five Lessons dont you worry. But we need to draw as much of the geometry as is possible first , so we're speaking the same language . It gets a little ..... deep in a Homerian way. We might need audio tape transcriptions from the GSEM classes for clarification. Even then it might not come clear. TBD.

[innercityteacher]

Well, think of your knowledge as being ahead of 7,026,144,822 people as of this moment.

If you move the ball back, then you must include a corresponding Plane Angle Increase and grip adjustment. Grip Adjustment is for Face and target line, and Plane Angle increase is so that Hinge Action can produce a straight Shot but also that Low Point isn't moved from below the Hinge Pin.

Ok,let me take this at face value to form a question. It's a 3 club windy day in Chicago, Grinnell, or Edinburgh, ball is back in the stance but instead of my 9 iron I choose an easy eight iron to avoid loosing control of the shot.

The ball is about an inch closer to me traveling along the 2 dimensional Plane, and my club face is closed about 2 or 3 degrees. Would't I wind up hooking the ball off the planet given a straight away target line and square/open left set-up given a standard Aim Point? Or, have I not grasped something obvious which is probable?

ICT

[innercityteacher]

Hey we got 55 posts in before needing to stop to clarify something... not bad. I hope we didnt lose BerntR gonna need him and HB , I know we set aside issues they have with the centres . We can come back to it though with drawings that address that specific issue. Its just not necessary to clarify that issue IMO to discuss the implications of the Geometry of the Circles orbit to ball response given plane and ball location, face angle , hinge action changes. Suffice it to say there is a constant centre and a straight Radius and therefor a circular orbit. Unhuman though this might be... It was a model a mode of examination that Homer had available to him at his time of writing . Much can be deduced from it.

D, that wasnt a jack. Do you want to pause to discuss your post #49 more or just leave it for now? I see some need for friendly debate / discussion coming on some concepts very central to shot shaping.

Bear we're heading towards Hogans stance / ball diagram from Five Lessons dont you worry. But we need to draw as much of the geometry as is possible first , so we're speaking the same language . It gets a little ..... deep in a Homerian way. We might need audio tape transcriptions from the GSEM classes for clarification. Even then it might not come clear. TBD.

If this is not really the place for an Aim Point discussion, or the practical application of the Geometry of the Circle, just pm me and I will post these questions on my thread and let the adults alone thinking deep geometrical thoughts.

This is interesting and important stuff.

ICT

[O.B.Left]

Does the ball move back because he narrows his Stance?

Did the Ball Move aft of Low-Point? Low Point is adjustable.

Narrowing the stance with his method, will cause the right shoulder to move Forward. Its the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. Longer Clubs cause the Right Shoulder to be rotated more at Impact relative to shorter clubs. So, using his method, the release point and aiming point is similar for different length clubs. Notice that at Impact, shorter clubs have Right Forearms that are more Vertical. Therefore, the Right Forearm Wedge is becoming in-line at a much faster rate.

Opening and closing your stance will affect Hip Action. It doesn't cause a plane line rotation unless you align your shoulders to your stance after the change. Notice that Hogan used a Closed Stance while Driving but his shoulders and Swing remained squarish to the Target.

Another way of thinking of the very common wedge shot , chip shot stance : Stance line open, hips open , weight left , hands ahead .........Its an impact fix /address. You have minimized moving parts, weight shifts for simplicity , consistency . The Plane Line could still point anywhere. A quarterback can be running left and throw to his right! The stance line here is not an indicator of plane line.


Sorta like how the common putter grip runs through the palm of the left hand and thereby zeroes #3 angle , the travel associated with all hinge actions thereby taking on the travel associated with Vertical Hinging , zereoing #3 power accumulator etc. It deadens the send to the ball somewhat making distance regulation easier. Normally the putter is the shortest lever in the bag too. For a reason.

The physics of it is lost on us golfers but through a collective trial and error process, if you will, we land on things that are adopted by most. They become standards without us knowing the reasoning, the physics behind it. And of course you do always have exceptions, modifications etc. Guys who do other things with great results ... but always with the physics of their procedures showing itself ....

But I digress....