[djd]

ok, think i'm making progress here but where is descarte when u need him, let me know if i have this right ... so if the torso is inclined ~45 deg to the horizontal then the arms would be vertical to the horizontal if they were in an acute 45 deg to the torso, now if the correct condition for the arms is ~90 deg to the torso then the arms would hang an additional 45 deg which is ~135 deg to the horizontal ... is this correct or have mucked this up? ... thanks again