The "New" inclined plane still has a straight baseline doesn't it? And, wouldn't the low end of the club either point at or cover it, or the clubshaft would be parallel to it? I'm just trying to reconcile in my mind the geometry of having the clubshaft on plane. Not to pick on Ted (I LOVE his motion), but I was originally asking that if we looked at each of the still positions of his video, aren't there times when the club is off plane by definition? Quite frankly, I think that impact is where it's at, but I spend a lot of time with students working on plane, and I do not want to misinform any of them, ever.]
Congrats to you, Bagger, and Trigolt...this site is a wonderful experience!
EC
I see EC's point....
Originally Posted by Yoda
Eddie,
For the Hitter using the Angle of Approach procedure, the 'old' Plane Angle with its Straight Line Baseline is gone. It served its purpose by locating the Stroke's Impact Point and Low Point. Through these two points passes its derivative -- the Straight Line Angle of Approach Delivery Line. This Visual Equivalent thus determined, the original Plane ceases to exist (2-J-3).
The Hitter with his Clubhead now Covers -- not Traces or 'points at' -- this new Delivery Line. And whatever Inclined Plane the Sweetspot must utilize to make this journey is now the Inclined Plane of the Stroke.
Lynn,
EC has a good point...
Are you saying that, once the original planeline is established...it ceases to exist for the Hitter and the 'new' delivery line???
This is an area of confusion I also have to sort out.
Lets see if I can put this clearly.
For the Hitter using Angle of Approach procedure, the Angle of Approach effectively becomes the new Plane Line. Every stroke has to have a straight Plain Line, and for the Hitter, this has now become Angle of Approach. Just look at 10-5-E. That is exactly what I mean. How Closed your new Plain Line is depends how far your ball is behind Low Point.
Now, when you're making a golf stroke on an Inclined Plane, you are, by default, also tracing its Plane Line (whether that Plane Line is the basic geometric plane line of the Angle of Approach). See photo in 10-5-E.
So I would say that although the Hitter sees the Clubhead visually (it's not actually covering- because the Plane would have to be vertical for that to happen!) covering his new Plane Line (the Angle of Approach), he is actually Tracing is also.
Just look at 10-5-E.
How can she be swinging on that Inclined plane and not trace or point at this Angle of Approach? Impossible! This contradicts what Yoda was saying - that the Hitter does not Trace this new Delivery Line, but just covers it. However, I believe Yoda was trying to make a different point...but I just don't know what it is.
For the Hitter using Angle of Approach procedure, the Angle of Approach effectively becomes the new Plane Line. Every stroke has to have a straight Plain Line, and for the Hitter, this has now become Angle of Approach. Just look at 10-5-E. That is exactly what I mean. How Closed your new Plain Line is depends how far your ball is behind Low Point.
Agreed my friend!!!
Originally Posted by tongzilla
Now, when you're making a golf stroke on an Inclined Plane, you are, by default, also tracing its Plane Line (whether that Plane Line is the basic geometric plane line of the Angle of Approach). See photo in 10-5-E.
Keep in mind...its the 'new' plane....thats whats confused me...the original is still intact, no? Arbitrarily....
Originally Posted by tongzilla
So I would say that although the Hitter sees the Clubhead visually (it's not actually covering- because the Plane would have to be vertical for that to happen!) covering his new Plane Line (the Angle of Approach), he is actually Tracing is also.
Close...
How can you see the angle of approach if you arent in a position to see it? Does the clubhead cover it???
Just look at 10-5-E.
How can she be swinging on that Inclined plane and not trace or point at this Angle of Approach? Impossible! This contradicts what Yoda was saying - that the Hitter does not Trace this new Delivery Line, but just covers it. However, I believe Yoda was trying to make a different point...but I just don't know what it is.[/quote]
Hmm...not sure...I think, in the angle of approach procedure...the hitter still traces the original planeline....which confuses the hel outta me!!!!!!!!!!!
So I would say that although the Hitter sees the Clubhead visually (it's not actually covering- because the Plane would have to be vertical for that to happen!) covering his new Plane Line (the Angle of Approach), he is actually Tracing is also.
Just look at 10-5-E.
I would have thought this was the other way around - the clubhead actually covers the angle of approach, not visually covers it (although as the clubhead gets closer and closer to the ground it would get closer and closer to visually covering it as well). Why do I think this? Because the location of our eyes isn't part of the geometry of the stroke - if my neck grew 20 feet then visually covering the angle of approach would change the geometry (the length of my neck would affect the geometry of the stroke). But then I take your point about the plane having to be verticle if the plane is really closed - so perhaps it neither visually nor vertically covers the line (exactly) with 10-5-E. With an angle of approach procedure and a plane line that was square, it would actually (vertically) cover the angle of approach though, wouldn't it?
I would have thought this was the other way around - the clubhead actually covers the angle of approach, not visually covers it (although as the clubhead gets closer and closer to the ground it would get closer and closer to visually covering it as well). Why do I think this? Because the location of our eyes isn't part of the geometry of the stroke - if my neck grew 20 feet then visually covering the angle of approach would change the geometry (the length of my neck would affect the geometry of the stroke). But then I take your point about the plane having to be verticle if the plane is really closed - so perhaps it neither visually nor vertically covers the line (exactly) with 10-5-E. With an angle of approach procedure and a plane line that was square, it would actually (vertically) cover the angle of approach though, wouldn't it?
Chris
The Angle of Approach procedure requires a Closed Plane Line per 10-5-E. Hence you are not using an Angle of Approach procedure if your Plane Line is Square (10-5-A), even though you are tracing the Angle of Approach that is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.
The Angle of Approach, Arc of Approach and the Straight Plane Line are all inscribed on the face of the Inclined Plane, whether it is Open, Square or Closed. Hence if your club is On Plane, you will be Tracing all of these lines.
For the new Closed Plane Line, which was the Angle of Approach of the old Basic Geometric Plane Line, there will also be an Angle of Approach Line inscribed on this new Inclined Plane. However, there is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure (so you will not be using this new Angle of Approach as your Delivery Line).
The Angle of Approach of your old Plane Line now becomes the basic Plane Line with the Angle of Approach procedure. Every stroke must have a Straight Plane Line. This Angle of Approach Delivery Line is automatically traced if the Club is On Plane.
It is necessary to have a steeper Plane Angle when using the Angle of Approach procedure. This complements the visual covering by the Clubhead of the Angle of Approach.
__________________
tongzilla
Last edited by tongzilla : 11-03-2005 at 07:17 PM.
The Angle of Approach procedure requires a Closed Plane Line per 10-5-E. Hence you are not using an Angle of Approach procedure if your Plane Line is Square (10-5-A), even though you are tracing the Angle of Approach that is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.
The Angle of Approach, Arc of Approach and the Straight Plane Line are all inscribed on the face of the Inclined Plane, whether it is Open, Square or Closed. Hence if your club is On Plane, you will be Tracing all of these lines.
For the new Closed Plane Line, which was the Angle of Approach of the Geometric Plane Line, there is also an Angle of Approach. However, there is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure.
The Angle of Approach of your old Plane Line now becomes the basic Plane Line with the Angle of Approach procedure. Every stroke must have a Straight Plane Line. This Angle of Approach Delivery Line is automatically traced if the Club is On Plane.
It is necessary to have a steeper Plane Angle when using the Angle of Approach procedure. This complements the visual covering by the Clubhead of the Angle of Approach.
Thanks for your post!
To your points in turn:
1. My mistake - you can obviously use the angle of approach as per 2-J-something or other (the bit about visual equivalents), but that musn't be the angle of approach procedure?
2. A really good point and a fog lifter for me - you have to watch those visual illusions!!!
3. I think I get this. Maybe. But don't ask me to explain it!
4. I get this.
5. But still, you'll only get true visual covering if the plane is so steep it's an eye plane!!! Nonetheless, as the clubhead gets close to the ground it will start to approximately cover the plane line visually (right?). I see now that it won't vertically cover it for reason 2 above.
1. My mistake - you can obviously use the angle of approach as per 2-J-something or other (the bit about visual equivalents), but that musn't be the angle of approach procedure?
2. A really good point and a fog lifter for me - you have to watch those visual illusions!!!
3. I think I get this. Maybe. But don't ask me to explain it!
4. I get this.
5. But still, you'll only get true visual covering if the plane is so steep it's an eye plane!!! Nonetheless, as the clubhead gets close to the ground it will start to approximately cover the plane line visually (right?). I see now that it won't vertically cover it for reason 2 above.
Chris
2-J-3 is describing the Angle of Approach procedure. There is an Angle of Approach line inscribed on every Inclined Plane, whether it's Open, Square or Closed, hence this Angle of Approach is being traced as long as the Club is On Plane. However, this does not mean you're using the Angle of Approach procedure, i.e. using Angle of Approach as a Delivery Line (Guide Line) for the Clubhead. Reviewing my previous post may clarify this.
You should get visual covering by the Clubhead of the Angle of Approach approximately one feet forward/back of the ball. Always confirm by monitoring the blur of Clubhead path. Yes, it requires a steeper Plane Angle. See Ted Fort's pitch.
The Angle of Approach procedure can only be used with 10-5-E. However, the converse of this statement is not necessarily true. It is absolutely possible to use a Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) without using the Angle of Approach procedure. In this case, there is no need to 'cover' this Closed Plane Line, which may or may not be the proxy for the Angle of Approach (this is irrelevant). A Swinger wishing to impart Hook Spin on the ball would do just that (combined with a relatively more forward ball location).
I think my confusion stems from whether we're talking about the angle of approach on the inclined plane, or it's visual equivalent on the ground. For 10-5-E, the one on the ground is the reference for constructing a new plane line, right? But once you've got the new plane line, forget both the old plane, and any new angle of approach visual equivalent. Trace the new plane line and the clubhead will (approximately) visually cover the (old visual equivalent) angle of approach through the bottom of it's arc.
I think I have further confusion stemming from the fact that not only does the clubhead have a path that can be described in various ways, but so too do the hands have a path, which can be described in the same way. So for example, in the 10-5-E procedure, does the right forearm operate parallel to the old (clubhead) angle of approach (that is the new planeline, and so directly behind the club), or does it have a new angle of approach? I'm guessing the former. If so, would the latter be using the closed plane line without using the "angle of approach procedure"?
Hybrid Mode
