I'll believe HOMER.
I do believe we are talking about the DOWNSWING, right? The first part of the 10-15-B is about the delayed hip motion on the Take-Up.
"Hip Slide starts the down swing"
"Use the Turning Hip to carry the Right Elbow"
"use the Sliding Hip to carry the Right Elbow"
and in 10-15-B- [after back swing] "The Hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn.
Nowhere in 10-15-B does it give the notion that the hips respond to the right arm moving on the DOWNSWING.
Doesn't TT show the right arm pulling down straight down (re-connect) to the body's side without a hip action on the start down? Certainly without a slide. Is he really using 10-15-C?
Unfortunately, I think that this is a debate that can go around in circles, because there is no differentiation between the actual sequence of events, and the intent of the individual. In other words, many quality athletic motions, including the golf swing, start from the ground up, sequencing through the knees, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, and hands. However, even though the swing is starting from the ground up, the intent of the golfer may be to move the hands/right shoulder/right forearm/left arm/whatever first, you know? In which case, both sides of the argument could be argued, with no resolution, because one is talking about feel, and one is talking about real, the irony being that both are right (in the proper context). Does that make sense?
Unfortunately, I think that this is a debate that can go around in circles, because there is no differentiation between the actual sequence of events, and the intent of the individual. In other words, many quality athletic motions, including the golf swing, start from the ground up, sequencing through the knees, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, and hands. However, even though the swing is starting from the ground up, the intent of the golfer may be to move the hands/right shoulder/right forearm/left arm/whatever first, you know? In which case, both sides of the argument could be argued, with no resolution, because one is talking about feel, and one is talking about real, the irony being that both are right (in the proper context). Does that make sense?
What you say make sense in a pure feel system. TGM is more than that.
This has not been a debate because when a question is asked, the reply is an old magazine interview- one I believe was NOT intended to TEACH TGM.
The DOWN Stroke does not in 10-15-B START with the right forearm moving first. The Hips delay or FOLLOW on the up stroke and LEAD on the down stroke. A Hip Slide and Right Arm Throw is different than a Right Arm Throw and turn. Penick's "Magic Move" is simultaneous.
But I asked if this is what TT wants to happen in his stroke- that the right arm precede any Hip Motion. Does is lower hand position make a slide unnecessary? Simple questions - I don't want to read the magazine article again. Maybe some one else knows TT and can help out.
What you say make sense in a pure feel system. TGM is more than that.
This has not been a debate because when a question is asked, the reply is an old magazine interview- one I believe was NOT intended to TEACH TGM.
The DOWN Stroke does not in 10-15-B START with the right forearm moving first. The Hips delay or FOLLOW on the up stroke and LEAD on the down stroke. A Hip Slide and Right Arm Throw is different than a Right Arm Throw and turn. Penick's "Magic Move" is simultaneous.
But I asked if this is what TT wants to happen in his stroke- that the right arm precede any Hip Motion. Does is lower hand position make a slide unnecessary? Simple questions - I don't want to read the magazine article again. Maybe some one else knows TT and can help out.
The Tomasello interview not intended to teach TGM. What a hoot!!! You got to be frickin kidding me.
In fact, the article comes off saying that Tomasello is one of a few who knows how to teach TGM.
Golf Illustrated
"Detractors---and there have been many---condemn the system as hopelessly complex and impossible to put into practical use. A.J. Tomasello is one of the very few who have been able to break down this intimidating array of physical laws into a few basic movements that, far from being impossible, can leave a student asking "Can the golf swing really be this simple?" Tomasello conveys Kelley's message with a spryness and energy more often found in a college sophomore than a senior citizen. And what a swing he has himself!" GI July 1991
On the next page Tomasello goes on to say....
"Learning the principles took time. I knew that Homer's information was what I was looking for, but truthly, after those sessions it was still over my head. Eventually, though, I learned both the movements and how to communicate them."
Sounds like Tommy is talking about TGM. No mention of any other teaching approach. The whole article is about TGM.
What you say make sense in a pure feel system. TGM is more than that.
This has not been a debate because when a question is asked, the reply is an old magazine interview- one I believe was NOT intended to TEACH TGM.
The DOWN Stroke does not in 10-15-B START with the right forearm moving first. The Hips delay or FOLLOW on the up stroke and LEAD on the down stroke. A Hip Slide and Right Arm Throw is different than a Right Arm Throw and turn. Penick's "Magic Move" is simultaneous.
But I asked if this is what TT wants to happen in his stroke- that the right arm precede any Hip Motion. Does is lower hand position make a slide unnecessary? Simple questions - I don't want to read the magazine article again. Maybe some one else knows TT and can help out.
It's interesting that the 4 Barrel stroke pattern in the third edition which is a swinging pattern did not have a "Right Arm Throw Trigger", the 10-20 component is a "Wrist Throw". The Right Arm Throw Trigger appears to apply only to Hitting. However, the Magic of the Right Forearm action of bending and straightening the right elbow applies to both hitting and swinging (Hitting "Right Arm Throw"...Swinging "Wrist Throw").
Unfortunately, I think that this is a debate that can go around in circles, because there is no differentiation between the actual sequence of events, and the intent of the individual. In other words, many quality athletic motions, including the golf swing, start from the ground up, sequencing through the knees, hips, trunk, shoulders, arms, and hands. However, even though the swing is starting from the ground up, the intent of the golfer may be to move the hands/right shoulder/right forearm/left arm/whatever first, you know? In which case, both sides of the argument could be argued, with no resolution, because one is talking about feel, and one is talking about real, the irony being that both are right (in the proper context). Does that make sense?
Fortunately there is no debate that all earthly human movements are precipitated by a ground reaction force. However, this doesn't mean that a golf downstroke is started by the lower body. The downstroke may be described as a harnessing and redirection of a ground reaction force via muscularly driven levers which doesn't begin until the clubhead changes direction. The final muscularly driven lever that ultimately changes the direction of the club can be both hands working together as a force couplet. Of course there are many fine methods of beginning the downstroke wherein the hands are not the ultimate levers or lever to musculary cause the clubhead to change direction, I don't think there is any method whereby ground reaction force alone could cause the clubhead to change direction.
Looking at things your way Delaware is okay by me. I prefer to see the legs pushing into earth as the means to stop the backswing and create the necessary groundforce to facilitate rather than cause the downswing. Once that ground reaction force is created, a golfer can avoid, overpower, or harness it. You can always check your swing after you push into the earth. Using the hands as levers to iniate the change of direction of the clubhead is a superlative way to finalize the harnessing and redirection of the previously created ground reaction force. So start your downswing with your hands and you may do quite well. You may do well to change the direction of the clubhead with your right forearm or your pivot but even those forces must slow down and transfer their force into the hands before impact and even the hands must slow to transfer groundforce into the clubhead before a good impact can happen.
Delaware, you've done a fine job of trying to explain what words will never adequately explain. The human kinetic chain is a beautiful thing that really has no beginning or end until you are no longer able to move. Keep moving your ball the way TT said you could and you'll do better than most for many years to come. Hit it before it moves. Get that groundforce out of your body and into your ball as soon and as efficiently as you can. Be a muscular conduit. Thanks for courage and conviction.
Fortunately there is no debate that all earthly human movements are precipitated by a ground reaction force. However, this doesn't mean that a golf downstroke is started by the lower body. The downstroke may be described as a harnessing and redirection of a ground reaction force via muscularly driven levers which doesn't begin until the clubhead changes direction. The final muscularly driven lever that ultimately changes the direction of the club can be both hands working together as a force couplet. Of course there are many fine methods of beginning the downstroke wherein the hands are not the ultimate levers or lever to musculary cause the clubhead to change direction, I don't think there is any method whereby ground reaction force alone could cause the clubhead to change direction.
Looking at things your way Delaware is okay by me. I prefer to see the legs pushing into earth as the means to stop the backswing and create the necessary groundforce to facilitate rather than cause the downswing. Once that ground reaction force is created, a golfer can avoid, overpower, or harness it. You can always check your swing after you push into the earth. Using the hands as levers to iniate the change of direction of the clubhead is a superlative way to finalize the harnessing and redirection of the previously created ground reaction force. So start your downswing with your hands and you may do quite well. You may do well to change the direction of the clubhead with your right forearm or your pivot but even those forces must slow down and transfer their force into the hands before impact and even the hands must slow to transfer groundforce into the clubhead before a good impact can happen.
Delaware, you've done a fine job of trying to explain what words will never adequately explain. The human kinetic chain is a beautiful thing that really has no beginning or end until you are no longer able to move. Keep moving your ball the way TT said you could and you'll do better than most for many years to come. Hit it before it moves. Get that groundforce out of your body and into your ball as soon and as efficiently as you can. Be a muscular conduit. Thanks for courage and conviction.
CH
What an excellent and thoughtful post...thank you ...it was an enjoyable read
Hybrid Mode
