How do you know if you're a swinger or hitter?

[exgolfpro]

I am NO expert, but here is my understanding of it. Hitters use the right arm (right handed) to push the handle of the club down thru impact. Swingers use the right shoulder to almost 'throw' the club down from the top of swing. The physical exerction of the right arm straightening is hitting. Everything else is swinging. Most of us who are just learning this stuff probably have a combination of both in our swings.

[6bmike]

Swingers use the right shoulder to almost 'throw' the club down from the top of swing.

No- be careful with this. Forget about the club. Hit the ball with your hands. The right shoulder thrust of the startdown delivers the hands- not the club. The club should be far behind the body and the hands until impact.

[nuke99]

I only knew it .. until I tried both ..I think another way to look at it ..

The distinctive difference is loading the whole shaft, like we are trying to swing against the whole shaft for hitting . so it tend to roll pretty early , ie a sweep and a paddle wheel.

and for swinging, moving the shaft like a javelin . and at release point will start the Overturn and the right arm start to "push" then overtakes the left arm and club switches end.. feel very much in sequence.

So there is actually a PULL and PUSH part in swinging and pushing..eg, for hitting there The pivot lag will transport the power package... by .. pulling.

The left side can only Pull, the right can push or pull.

Therefore how the shaft is being "treated" is the determining factor if hitting or swinging.


maybe the reason why Ben Hogan wants 3 right arms still for swinging..

[Bagger Lance]

maybe the reason why Ben Hogan wants 3 right arms still for swinging..

Ben wanted three right hands because ideally he wanted more pivot speed which was ultimately sensed by the right hand as lag pressure.

If you truly know hitting and truly know swinging, the lag pressure is similar, but the effort in creating the lag pressure are worlds apart.

In Hitting, there is no pivot pull except in start down for a 4-barrel stroke. Once start down is completed, that's it for the pivot except to passively support the rest of the motion.

In Swinging, there is no right triceps thrust except for extensor action which is essential for maintaining the power package structure. So besides extensor action even in the most powerful flywheels, the right triceps duty is to maintain the structure so it doesn't break down (quit) under the forces of centrifugal pull, increasing lag pressure, and ball compression. The right arm may feel active, and it is to a certain degree, but it is passively supporting the motion; i.e. it isn't driving the motion except for a true right arm swing.

[Yoda]

Ben wanted three right hands because ideally he wanted more pivot speed which was ultimately sensed by the right hand as lag pressure.

Ben Hogan has written (and demonstrated on film

) that he keyed on the Hips to begin his Downstroke.

"This is the first movement . . . there!"

However, he correctly viewed this Hip Turn (and its Action) as means to an end and not the end in itself.

"Then . . . you release at the bottom."

Rewinding in TGM-speak:

However, he correctly viewed this Hip Turn (10-14-A/Standard/Free Turn with a Weight Shift in both directions) and its Action (10-15-B/Delayed/Shoulders lead back; Hips lead down) as means (Right Shoulder Acceleration / 8-7) to an end (Hand Acceleration / 8-8; Clubhead Acceleration / 8-9); and ultimately, Ball Acceleration / 8-10); and not the end in itself.

The Body (Zone 1 / Pivot) and the Arms (Zone 2 / Power) are allies in the war against Clubhead Inertia, but they have different assignments. The Body serves as the Axis of the Centrifugal Motion, and in the initial stages of the Downstroke, Transports and Accelerates the Arms. Ultimately, though, it is the Arms that deliver the real Power.

In simple, the long hitters have the God-given ability to swing their Arms very fast. And the faster the intended Arm Swing, the faster must be the enabling Pivot. Ben Hogan possessed these twin capabilities, and as a result, even at 130 pounds, he was lightning fast through the hitting area and extremely long. In his book, Golf Secrets Exposed, here's what Bill Mehlhorn had to say about Hogan's arm swing:

"I played a round with him when he was first starting out and talked to him and said, 'No matter what you hear on the tour, don't let anybody ever change your arm swing.' He had the best arm swing of anybody playing. He's never changed it."

At Start Down, said Hogan in Five Lessons:

"Turn your hips back to the left. There must be enough lateral motion to transfer the weight to the left foot."

"The movement of the hips inaugurates a whole chain of actions."

This simultaneous 'turn and lateral motion' -- more definitively, Homer Kelley's 'slide with delayed turn' (10-14-B) http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ben_hogan2.mpg) -- 'tilts the Axis' (the spine per 7-12 and 7-14) and enables the Right Shoulder to remain On Plane (10-13-D).

After that, maximum distance demands a fast arm swing. Again quoting Hogan: ". . . I think of only two things: starting the hips back and then hitting just as hard as I can with the upper part of my body, my arms and my hands, in that order."

With or without the Hand Action Accumulators -- #2 (Left Wrist Cock and Uncock) or #3 (Left Hand Turn and Roll) . . .

There is no substitute.

[nuke99]

Thats very cool stuff.. ! Yoda

[nuke99]

Bagger,

What I am actually trying to express . One way to look at swinging or hitting is how we implement forces to the shaft.

Are we implementing the forces ( usually muscular ) against and across the shaft ( hitting)

Or are we letting Centrifugal /centripetal force , the nature of physics implemented on the shaft .. In fact . A slinger will be a very nice mental picture for swinging.

that is one way that I look at it to separate swinging and hitting.

Now, do this motion have to be pure to play good golf?


Though I notice, and got confused , and puzzled and hopefully I understand better now. That there seem to be a lot of variances to swinging. Not limiting to Homer Kelly's Power accumulator and lag pressures. There are also transfer and conservation of inertia, Torque , and its possible to apply torque from ground up through the joints, even pivot brake. As different joints accelerates , brakes and decelerates then pause.

From Earnest Jones, David "gravity" golf . , George Knudson, Bob Torski, Jimmy Damaret to ,Paul Bertholy, Jimmy ballards, Ben Hogan and last but not least Homer Kelly. Different characteristic and methods of swinging. Ben Hogan did say HIT it ... not swing through it in the Youtube video mentioned by Yoda.. And Tom Tomasello videos did mention the exact same thing... But I would not argue if its actually swinging or hitting... 4 barrel swinger or 4 barrel hitter.. Because ,, simply I don't know..

From Just letting the club drops with the effect of pure gravity and let the centrifugal force, to applying torque from feet up to maximize inertia and/or using the arm "hit" to release. or Pivotless Pure Arm swing.. or let the pivot bring the arm around ..Let the arm blast from the pivot etc etc etc....

No expert or even novice in these but I hope one day someone bring out some data from TPI or Iclub ...