Bucket,
Due to privacy agreements with tour players, I can't mention names.
Over the years the boys have provided evaluations to at least 4 former number 1 players in the world over the years.
Interesting enough.
They all had 6-M-1 starting form the ground. This was measured.
They all had an awesome kinetic link (6-M-1).
at impact their hips were open between 20 to 25 degrees. Hips and shoulders were perpendicular to their spine at impact. So hips and shoulder were square to each other at impact.
With minimal right lateral bending.
Then all had good muscular loading. Fire and load muscle in right sequence in swing.The way they fired their body in sequence was all very similar.
All had ground forces and stable lower body mechanics, which stabilized at impact, actually their hip counter torque at impact.
Once the upper body was square to their hips at impact and club was released the hips and shoulder turned to finish position as together as one.
Like all these guys above appear to be similar.
This is what is interesting, their geometry all looked different,
even though their physics was the same, they created similar movement patterns. One thing which was the same is their sequence or kinetic link to start the downswing were the same. ( 6-M-1)
Although their plane work around the axis of their spine.
Is interesting even though their physics were identical their geometry appeared different. There swing all looked unique and different to each other.
I thinks it's pretty cool.
Primarily we focus on is creating the right physics and movement patterns. Then create training programs for each person so they can develop effective movement patterns.
Basically what we do is screen a golfers to measure their movement patterns, then create a program to improve movement patterns to create the right physics and develop a kineticlink (6-M-1
Very good . . . . so focusing on the similarities exclusive of geometry (which I think is significant at least to the curvature of the ball) . . . .
I highlighted some of what you mentioned in terms of similarities . . .
1. When you say the hips and shoulders are perpendicular to the spine . . . .what do you mean there?
2. As far as the hips and shoulders, was the center of the hip turn in front of the center of the shoulder turn? If so how much?
3. When you say the hips and shoulders were square . . . you mean open the same amount?
4. Minimal lateral bending . . . is that bending to the right with the spine?
5. Could you elaborate on muscle loading?
As to geometry, to me the geometry differences are very significant maybe not interms of generating speed BUT almost everything interms of determing trajectory, start line and curvature. If you consider the differences in grip type and where the arms of the players I posted are in relation to the ball the release motions are vastly different. These players all hit vastly different "stock" shots as well as a result of the different launch conditions produced by their respective geometry.
No question the ball responds to speed generated by the similarities you mentioned that you have studied. But it also responds to the particular face path angle of attack, angle of approach and ascent produced by the different geometries.
But I'm very interested in similarities that you have found.
Thanks I look forward to your reply . . . . I don't disagree with the angles piece necessarily . . . However, I think if you look at swings like Snead vs. Hogan vs. Nelson vs. Jack vs. Palmer vs. Buck they all had very dynamic but very different pivots and sequencing . . . much to do with different ball flights . . . the pivot can have MAJOR implications on launch conditions via differences in the angle of approach and angle of attack.
That being said there are probably common demoninators as well . . .
Good discussion . . . thanks for putting the time in.
Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
Very good . . . . so focusing on the similarities exclusive of geometry (which I think is significant at least to the curvature of the ball) . . . .
I highlighted some of what you mentioned in terms of similarities . . .
1. When you say the hips and shoulders are perpendicular to the spine . . . .what do you mean there?
2. As far as the hips and shoulders, was the center of the hip turn in front of the center of the shoulder turn? If so how much?
3. When you say the hips and shoulders were square . . . you mean open the same amount?
4. Minimal lateral bending . . . is that bending to the right with the spine?
5. Could you elaborate on muscle loading?
As to geometry, to me the geometry differences are very significant maybe not interms of generating speed BUT almost everything interms of determing trajectory, start line and curvature. If you consider the differences in grip type and where the arms of the players I posted are in relation to the ball the release motions are vastly different. These players all hit vastly different "stock" shots as well as a result of the different launch conditions produced by their respective geometry.
No question the ball responds to speed generated by the similarities you mentioned that you have studied. But it also responds to the particular face path angle of attack, angle of approach and ascent produced by the different geometries.
But I'm very interested in similarities that you have found.
Yeah ball flight will be different everyone compresses the ball different so they are going to create different spin rates and ball flights. Another factor is also club fitting kick points,shaft flex and lofts etc.
Q1 Ok picture this T the horizontal line represents the shoulders and vertical live represents the spine.
For the hips turn the T up side down again horizontal line are hips and vertical are spine. Hips and shoulder are perpendicular to the spine.
Q2 Hips aren't in front at all at impact. They are square to each other at impact. On 2D video cause sometimes true impact is in between frames. 2D can't pick this up at all. You need to be able to measure ball collision and body rotational speeds to gather this information. But when measured this is what occurs. Down side of 2d video can't measure speed or movement patterns.
Q3 Yeah that's right on good player or people who have good movement patterns between 20 to 25 degrees open left of target line. The hips and shoulders are open the same (square) belt buckle and sternum are in line.
Q4 Minimal lateral bending is your tilt or bending to right at impact, very important this stabilizes at impact doesn't continue to lateral bend. The straighter spine better the rotation and better transfer of speed to next body segment.
Q5 Muscular loading is loading and firing muscles groups in the golf swing. There are two things which drive 6-M-1
Conservation of momentum and muscular loading. Muscular loading power of fires conservation of momentum in each body segment.
We measure the muscles loading and firing in the golfswing.
We measure how effectively you loaded them and how well you fire your muscles.We look at if you loaded and fired your muscle groups in the right sequence and if you fired them at the right time.
We teach people how to train there body to create conservation of momentum and how to load and fire their muscles. through training they learn how to do this naturally when they play..
myself I have 6-M-1, conservation of momentum, I know how to load and fire my muscles right. I can have my hips and shoulders square at impact, my hips and shoulders are perpendicular to my spine. This why my back doesn't hurt.
I call compress the golf ball pretty good and very well known for my striking abilities.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-05-2009 at 07:19 AM.
Yeah ball flight will be different everyone compresses the ball different so they are going to create different spin rates and ball flights. Another factor is also club fitting kick points,shaft flex and lofts etc.
Q1 Ok picture this T the horizontal line represents the shoulders and vertical live represents the spine.
For the hips turn the T up side down again horizontal line are hips and vertical are spine. Hips and shoulder are perpendicular to the spine.
Q2 Hips aren't in front at all at impact. They are square to each other at impact. On 2D video cause sometimes true impact is in between frames. 2D can't pick this up at all. You need to be able to measure ball collision and body rotational speeds to gather this information. But when measured this is what occurs. Down side of 2d video can't measure speed or movement patterns.
Q3 Yeah that's right on good player or people who have good movement patterns between 20 to 25 degrees open left of target line. The hips and shoulders are open the same (square) belt buckle and sternum are in line.
Q4 Minimal lateral bending is your tilt or bending to right at impact, very important this stabilizes at impact doesn't continue to lateral bend. The straighter spine better the rotation and better transfer of speed to next body segment.
Q5 Muscular loading is loading and firing muscles groups in the golf swing. There are two things which drive 6-M-1
Conservation of momentum and muscular loading. Muscular loading power of fires conservation of momentum in each body segment.
We measure the muscles loading and firing in the golfswing.
We measure how effectively you loaded them and how well you fire your muscles.We look at if you loaded and fired your muscle groups in the right sequence and if you fired them at the right time.
We teach people how to train there body to create conservation of momentum and how to load and fire their muscles. through training they learn how to do this naturally when they play..
myself I have 6-M-1, conservation of momentum, I know how to load and fire my muscles right. I can have my hips and shoulders square at impact, my hips and shoulders are perpendicular to my spine. This why my back doesn't hurt.
I call compress the golf ball pretty good and very well known for my striking abilities.
Interesting stuff . . . . . In your training exercise . . . . are the "golfy"? Do they mimic a "golf like" pivot? Or do you work on the separate components lateral, vertical and rotary separate?
Regarding the hips and shoulders being open the same amount at impact I have a ques. Does this then mean that the hips need to turn more in the back swing than x-factor type instruction tells us? Or are the shoulders and hips matching up at impact as a result of the shoulders catching up to the hips?
I agree that the pivot is very important. Zone 1 is where people should start BUT you cannot feel # 3 PP (clubhead) , trace the plane line (shaft/sweetspot plane) as well as execute one of three hinge actions (club face)on command with the pivot. The pivot does all the heavy lifting the dumb brute if you will. The hands are the command post, and without the science of relationship (Geometry) a golfer will have nothing but a dumb brute pivot with moron mittens! Hell, before reading Chapter five of TGM I did not even know how to grip the club properly. I have played pretty good golf for 20 years now. No amount of physics can teach you to put your hands on the club correctly. I do not think a chasm exists between action and motion, as you seem to suggest. Designating a percentile participation score seems silly.
Bucket,
We focus on two things with the hips ,creating hip rotational speed and stabilizing the lower body at impact.
The hips are designed to rotate perpendicular to the spine. In tennis, baseball and golf the hip rotation is the same.In all three sports the body have similar movement patterns and create body segments speeds the same. The kinetic link is the same. They all use 6-m-1 starting from the ground up, the two factors which drive 6-M-1 is Conservation of momentum and muscular loading.
6-m-1 is how the body wants to naturally move and naturally transfers speed from one segment to another and finally transfered to the club or bat.Muscular loading is the engine which creates the speed in each body segment.
We use all types of techniques to train movement patterns and depends on the data to what type of training we provide to each athlete. Every athlete is different and has different movement issues. So once we measure their movement patterns then we devise a program for that athlete.
We don't teach people on practice fairway or striking a golf ball.
We train them how to develop the right movement patterns and when they play golf this naturally happens. Once your body learns 6-m-1 this becomes automatic this is natural way the body wants to move and create speed.
Bucket,
We focus on two things with the hips ,creating hip rotational speed and stabilizing the lower body at impact.
The hips are designed to rotate perpendicular to the spine. In tennis, baseball and golf the hip rotation is the same.In all three sports the body have similar movement patterns and create body segments speeds the same. The kinetic link is the same. They all use 6-m-1 starting from the ground up, the two factors which drive 6-M-1 is Conservation of momentum and muscular loading.
6-m-1 is how the body wants to naturally move and naturally transfers speed from one segment to another and finally transfered to the club or bat.Muscular loading is the engine which creates the speed in each body segment.
We use all types of techniques to train movement patterns and depends on the data to what type of training we provide to each athlete. Every athlete is different and has different movement issues. So once we measure their movement patterns then we devise a program for that athlete.
We don't teach people on practice fairway or striking a golf ball.
We train them how to develop the right movement patterns and when they play golf this naturally happens. Once your body learns 6-m-1 this becomes automatic this is natural way the body wants to move and create speed.
I'm certainly interested in the excercises you use for sure. But I think one thing that we have to keep in mind in studying the similarities of the motions is the amount of precision required in the sport. I was talking to Eddie Cox a little about this. Sure there are some similarities in baseball with regards to the movement . . . HOWVER . . . in baseball you can hit a ball to left or right field and still hit a "good shot".
It would be nice to have a discussion of the exercises you use if it's appropriate with Lynn and you are willing to discuss. I would be very interested to learn more.
I agree that the pivot is very important. Zone 1 is where people should start BUT you cannot feel # 3 PP (clubhead) , trace the plane line (shaft/sweetspot plane) as well as execute one of three hinge actions (club face)on command with the pivot. The pivot does all the heavy lifting the dumb brute if you will. The hands are the command post, and without the science of relationship (Geometry) a golfer will have nothing but a dumb brute pivot with moron mittens! Hell, before reading Chapter five of TGM I did not even know how to grip the club properly. I have played pretty good golf for 20 years now. No amount of physics can teach you to put your hands on the club correctly. I do not think a chasm exists between action and motion, as you seem to suggest. Designating a percentile participation score seems silly.
Okie,
One thing video can't measure is body segments speeds.
Ok there are three thing you need is 6-m-1, conservation of momentum and muscular loading for good physics.
People lose P3 due to arm deceleration as soon as the hands begin to slow down to early in the downswing and the club then is moving faster than the hands and you lose pressure against the shaft. So this is a physics problem not geometry problem.
You have a power leakage somewhere. The arms slow down when you lose conservation of momentum and muscular loading. This could even occurred as early as the from starting from the ground.
Most people pull on the handle and this creates a feeling of P3,
in reality they have poor ball compression and they are adding an external force to the system which is also creating arm deceleration and steering. They pull on the handle to stop an early release cause their arms are decelerating. So it boils down to again poor physics and a power leakage somewhere.
Ok if you have a good grip ,flat left wrist will happen naturally is you have good physics.When you arm sits natural down by your side your hand naturally is flat.
You can believe what you like that's fine, although when you understand how the body moves naturally you will soon understand you can achieve flat left wrist with good physics. If your setup is right and grip is right, good physics you will achieve flat left wrist.
Every athlete I have worked with say to me and they achieve good physics they can feel P1,P2,P3 and P4. Pressure aren't applied they are created and felt from good physics.
Your entitled to your beliefs thats fine, there your beliefs.
Although I have no beliefs or opinions this is what 20 years of measuring 10's of thousands of golf swing tell us. using laws of physics and newtons law and body physics.
I have recently started the exercises that BioMechanic teaches. He has also been good enough to answer my many questions. What has been a real eye opener for me is how I have been able to link what Bio has explained to me back to the many, many, many exercises and drills that I have read and watched and been told about over the years. But what he has explained to me doesn't just say "Do this" it is linked back to the basic physical, chemical and mechanical forces that create the results.
For example, why would he say that physics is 90% and geometry is only 10%? Well lets look at 3 fundamentals - FLW, lag and plane. Well if your physics start from the ground and follow the kinetic link up you will get a FLW - how can you not - all of the force is in front of the clubhead. And it is the lag that is generated that leads to a FLW. Certainly you need to obey some fundamental geometry in your set up. But you can more easily have perfect geometry and throw it all away with poor physics that have perfect physics and mess it up through poor geometry. In fact I am finding that my body is creating good geometry while I do the exercises because it I don't everything goes haywire when I hit the impact bag.
As for plane we are all aware of the many incredible golfers over the years whos only brush with plane is through the impact zone. If you work around a stable spine with shoulders and hips aligned you will maintain a really good plane.
And best of all the training makes this automatic. It trains your body to naturally create the right biomechanics. Then you can fine tune your alignments and set up to work the ball how you want.
Not to say that you can't hit a ball successfully with poor physics but good geometry. You can I'm sure. But better with good physics, surely?
Hybrid Mode
