I'm still kinda of lost, mainly because the photos in the amazing changes section. The plane is always the turned shoulder plane that people are on thoughout the downstroke and impact.
That makes me think that Ted and Lynn are trying to get students on that plane during downstroke, release point and impact. I would think they must feel this is the best choice. I spent 3 hours with Lynn a couple years ago but we didn't get to use the video system. If we would have been able to then I would prolly be much more clear about these planes.
I know tgm isn't one set way, but why would the plane in the amazing changes section always be the turned shoulder plane?
I want the plane that gives me most compression and is easiest for me to get a forward leaning clubshaft at impact.
I know tgm isn't one set way, but why would the plane in the amazing changes section always be the turned shoulder plane?
I want the plane that gives me most compression and is easiest for me to get a forward leaning clubshaft at impact.
It is a "set way" in that the basic stroke patterns' component variations are thought to be the best and least compensated. One does not have to comply however as long as you know what you're doing.
Regarding the TSP angle, it's because Homer Kelley thought that the turned shoulder plane was far superior because "any plane shift is dangerous". He associated the elbow plane with pivot-controlled hands and warned against the shoulder turn takeaway as always too flat, or low making a plane shift mandatory, likely unintentional and unsuspected. It is for this reason the right forearm takeaway is preferred, described as mandatory.
The turned shoulder plane is defined as "that reference point reached by the right shoulder after a flat backstroke shoulder turn. With whatever body position (accounting for waist bend) the plane passes through, the right shoulder and hands are precisely AT the right shoulder level at the Top (See Brian Gay's), regardless of plane angle or shoulder turn. But any other shoulder turn can also provide the acceptable reference point."
Shoulder turn and plane angle are two different things. The plane angle is referenced by elbow, hands or various shoulder turns.
The Standard shoulder turn is a flat backstroke and an on-plane downstroke.
In the 7th edition the preferred variation was changed to Rotated shoulder turn, the normal path at right angles to the spine, which can locate a turned shoulder plane angle but doesn't have to. The downstroke may shift to whatever plane angle is chosen.
That looks like what ndwolfe is using.
I think we're struggling a bit with why your hands are too low at impact regardless of plane angle. Not enough axis tilt, right shoulder a little out instead of down. Check the clubshaft at parallel to the ground. It's slightly off plane there. Look to the pivot.
Good looking swing, by the way.
In the 7th edition the preferred variation was changed to Rotated shoulder turn, the normal path at right angles to the spine, which can locate a turned shoulder plane angle but doesn't have to. The downstroke may shift to whatever plane angle is chosen.
One source close to the TGM book told me that the rotated shoulder turn was not Mr. Kelley's intention for the 7th edition.
One source close to the TGM book told me that the rotated shoulder turn was not Mr. Kelley's intention for the 7th edition.
This is a bit of a relief. I dont have the 7th but didnt the 6th say something to the effect that the Rotated Shoulder turn was for non pivot shots only. I know this may a be a somewhat controversial subject for the One Plane and S&T guys.
Well, it's in there, with a Slide hip turn.
The rotated shoulder turn says to use a shiftless hip turn. And under shiftless hip turn it says "tends toward a soft stroke with emphasis on accuracy. It can produce an on plane downstroke shoulder turn only with the rotated shoulder plane angle." (As defining a turned shoulder plane angle versus transport only?)
Something does not compute. I think shiftless hip turn is not always required with rotated shoulder turn. Only when using it for transport-only as in 10-13-B. Awkward wording. Unclear in both the shoulder turn and the hip turn.
It's in the thread on 7th Edition Changes but hasn't been discussed.
I'd stick with Standard shoulder turn, flat back, on-plane down. TSP angle. 'specially at my age.
If most tour players are double shifters then why is it that Lynn and Ted always have the TSP drawen in the amazing changes section?
And why in most photo are the hands, right forearm, sweetspot/clubshaft and right shoulder pretty much on it?
They must feel like that is a better downstroke plane, all the way to impact. And I guess they don't think shifting down to the elbow plane is worth while?
Is that the case?
Last edited by ndwolfe81 : 09-29-2009 at 10:06 AM.
If most tour players are double shifters then why is it that Lynn and Ted always have the TSP drawen in the amazing changes section?
And why in most photo are the hands, right forearm, sweetspot/clubshaft and right shoulder pretty much on it?
They must feel like that is a better downstroke plane, all the way to impact. And I guess they don't think shifting down to the elbow plane is worth while?
Is that the case?
Perhaps the confusion lies in the belief that there ideally is one singular "Plane" or one fixed Inclined Plane angle? While this may true intellectually and indeed practically for short shots, "The" Inclined Plane can and does Shift or change angles for longer shots. I cant think of golfer who hasnt shifted plane angles for full shots. Given the manner in which we define the plane anyways. (JIm Hardy's definition being a different kettle of fish, the plane of the shoulders vis a vis the left arm being one and the same etc).
From a DTL point of view, the angle formed where the Plane (picture it as a four sided rectangle along which the clubshaft or the more correctly a line between the #3 PP and the Sweetspot, travels at all times) meets the ground (the Base Line, Target LIne) can change. The club's lie angle defines the starting plane angle assuming you dont want to come into the ball toe up or down. The right forearm , or right Forearm Flying Wedge is said to be on this Plane Angle when the Right Elbow is on plane.
So "The" Inclined Plane or "The Plane" does not preclude changes in the plane angle, "shifts".
Also, Per 1-L-18 Machine Concepts. "Changing the Plane Angle has no effect on the Plane Line". Implicit in this is that Tracing the Plane Line accurately is far more critical than complying with a specific pattern of plane shifts. See Trevino, Furyk etc. There used be a really nice animation on this site that described this. If I can find it in my files Ill send it to you. It will make things clear as words sometimes fail us when describing geometry.
Yoda would, I believe, prefer the TSP in Startdown so that the Right Shoulder can get on the Inclined Plane and take the Power Package down that plane towards the ball initially. But this does not imply that he wants the clubshaft, right forearm, hands, #3 pressure point , sweetspot etc to stay on the TSP all the way to Impact. The fog will lift when you can imagine the Inclined Plane's angle changing as it shifts from a higher angle to a lower one. From say the TSP to the Elbow plane. Its the same plane of glass or plasic or whatever with different, shifting angles where it meets the ground. That is "The" Plane.
If most tour players are double shifters then why is it that Lynn and Ted always have the TSP drawn in the amazing changes section?
And why in most photo are the hands, right forearm, sweetspot/clubshaft and right shoulder pretty much on it?
They must feel like that is a better downstroke plane, all the way to impact. And I guess they don't think shifting down to the elbow plane is worth while?
Is that the case?
Yes, that's correct.
The preferred plane angle is the turned shoulder plane, however it may be determined by the actual shoulder turn component. The reference point primarily means after a flat shoulder turn but other shoulder turns can be used for the reference point, and it says that if the former can't be reached then a steeper plane angle should be used.
"This plane angle has far better performance characteristics than any other because any plane angle shift is hazardous. This procedure does not refer to the disruptive shoulder turn takeaway."
And the plane angle variation (various shifting) specified is Zero Shift, which means both directions. (Mandatory right forearm takeaway.)
The Standard shoulder turn component is a Flat (as possible) backstroke turn and an on-plane downstroke turn.
It was changed in the 7th edition to Rotated Shoulder Turn (right angles to the spine) and we're discussing if that's possible given a Slide hip turn, because the shoulder turn seems to demand a Shiftless hip turn. The discussion really belongs in the Changes for 7th Edition thread.
Well, it's in there, with a Slide hip turn.
The rotated shoulder turn says to use a shiftless hip turn. And under shiftless hip turn it says "tends toward a soft stroke with emphasis on accuracy. It can produce an on plane downstroke shoulder turn only with the rotated shoulder plane angle." (As defining a turned shoulder plane angle versus transport only?)
Something does not compute. I think shiftless hip turn is not always required with rotated shoulder turn. Only when using it for transport-only as in 10-13-B. Awkward wording. Unclear in both the shoulder turn and the hip turn.
It's in the thread on 7th Edition Changes but hasn't been discussed.
I'd stick with Standard shoulder turn, flat back, on-plane down. TSP angle. 'specially at my age.
When you are saying "flat back" does this mean horizontal to the ground or to the spine?
When you are saying "flat back" does this mean horizontal to the ground or to the spine?
To the ground, as flat as possible. It won't actually be horizontal to the ground due to spine angle. It would be a flat turn compared to a rotated shoulder turn which is a "normal" at right angles to the spine turn.
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