Yes. All of this is of course for the purpose of "zeroing out" any divergence between the path and the face, or hitting it straight (also assuming an accurate strike) It also helps explain my method of hitting straight shots, namely trying to hit a fade! To me it is a matter of learning how to hit it straight and then learn to aim it. To me the inside out cut shot achieves the same result. Took a beginner, taught him how to hit a little punch shot that initially was a push-slice. We worked on the club face angle (mainly by matching it up with the clubhead path. first push-fades, then finally just pushes. Next we just started to rotate everything to the left until the ball was on target. He had 3 polies over the course of 30 or so shots. I was disgusted! The face still gets away from him, and we are now moving the ball closer to low point and shallowing out his angle of attack as well as the path...which typical means less adjustment in terms of reorienting the plane line. I don't use the ever popular instruction of swinging left, I just trace the right plane line.
About the vertical/horizontal swing plane terminology. I agree that knowing what an elbow plane vs a turned shoulder plane is far more user friendly but Trackman measures these planes to the degree. Not because it is an earth shattering revelation to a player that their vertical swing plane with the driver is 45*, but because that number has a lot to do with the result of the shot. Wonder hogan looks like he was going to bruise his ribcage on the following through by the degree he ripped it left! Flatter swing plane (as I already mentioned) has more of an out nature, so to have the ball start on line he rotated his stuff left (even with a closed stance)Nicklaus on the hand was into bruising his chin on the backswing and hardly seems to be making any plane line adjustments (less out.)I do not know that the take on the d-plane is over here (I was on sabbatical!) but it squares up!
Last edited by okie : 11-19-2010 at 12:38 AM.
Reason: blah blah
Yes. All of this is of course for the purpose of "zeroing out" any divergence between the path and the face, or hitting it straight (also assuming an accurate strike) It also helps explain my method of hitting straight shots, namely trying to hit a fade! To me it is a matter of learning how to hit it straight and then learn to aim it. To me the inside out cut shot achieves the same result. Took a beginner, taught him how to hit a little punch shot that initially was a push-slice. We worked on the club face angle (mainly by matching it up with the clubhead path. first push-fades, then finally just pushes. Next we just started to rotate everything to the left until the ball was on target. He had 3 polies over the course of 30 or so shots. I was disgusted! The face still gets away from him, and we are now moving the ball closer to low point and shallowing out his angle of attack as well as the path...which typical means less adjustment in terms of reorienting the plane line. I don't use the ever popular instruction of swinging left, I just trace the right plane line.
About the vertical/horizontal swing plane terminology. I agree that knowing what an elbow plane vs a turned shoulder plane is far more user friendly but Trackman measures these planes to the degree. Not because it is an earth shattering revelation to a player that their vertical swing plane with the driver is 45*, but because that number has a lot to do with the result of the shot. Wonder hogan looks like he was going to bruise his ribcage on the following through by the degree he ripped it left! Flatter swing plane (as I already mentioned) has more of an out nature, so to have the ball start on line he rotated his stuff left (even with a closed stance)Nicklaus on the hand was into bruising his chin on the backswing and hardly seems to be making any plane line adjustments (less out.)I do not know that the take on the d-plane is over here (I was on sabbatical!) but it squares up!
Welcome back OKIE. We missed ya!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I do not know that the take on the d-plane is over here (I was on sabbatical!) but it squares up!
Hmm?
Some members like it, some don't. When I hear the term D-Plane, I reach for the Xanax. I haven't given the subject very much thought but, as always, I'm opinionated.
D-Plane replaces Plane Line with the Target Line and Low-Point with Ball Location. It "Terms" the "Lack of Clubshaft Control" the Vertical Swing Plane, and the "Lack of Clubface Control" the Horizontal Swing Plane.
Rather than learning how to strike a ball so it responds to an Angular Force as it would a Linear Force (Hinging), or Learning Pressure Points to use mechanical advantage, the D Plane promises players to "come as you are" and compensate. It's Corporate Golf Outing mentality. It lacks only the "Bumpers" running down both sides of the Fairway to make it the official teaching sponsor at McDonald's Corporate Golf Outings.
D-Plane is "Compensation Golf". Aim Right, Swing Left, Swing Right, Aim Left and further adjust for Up-hill, down-hill and Side-hill lies. You need to adjust 3 compensations before you choose a club. With D-Plane, you need 15 clubs in the bag. The 15th, is a combination "Angle Finder - Ball Position Locator".
Anyway, it's just my opinion. I think players turn to TGM because they want solutions, not compensations. Players turn to D-Plane because they want to hit the Ball, and turn to TGM when they want to learn to hit it effectively.
Rather than learning how to strike a ball so it responds to an Angular Force as it would a Linear Force (Hinging), or Learning Pressure Points to use mechanical advantage, the D Plane promises players to "come as you are" and compensate. It's Corporate Golf Outing mentality. It lacks only the "Bumpers" running down both sides of the Fairway to make it the official teaching sponsor at McDonald's Corporate Golf Outings.
D-Plane is "Compensation Golf". Aim Right, Swing Left, Swing Right, Aim Left and further adjust for Up-hill, down-hill and Side-hill lies. You need to adjust 3 compensations before you choose a club. (End of quote)
Go ahead, young man, let it out!!!!! Just remember, we oppose bad ideas, not people (unless of course they are just total idiots-don't get me started). We advocate clear, careful (lighthearted in my case) thoughts. We build lasting, reasonable solutions.
Any device which can help us, can help us, since our goal is to improve. We are not "in it to win it." We are in it to improve it, imho.
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Go ahead, young man, let it out!!!!! Just remember, we oppose bad ideas, not people (unless of course they are just total idiots-don't get me started). We advocate clear, careful (lighthearted in my case) thoughts. We build lasting, reasonable solutions.
Any device which can help us, can help us, since our goal is to improve. We are not "in it to win it." We are in it to improve it, imho.
ICT
uh oh..... did that sound like a rant? I'm not angry or anything. I was laughing while writing it. Man, I've got a problem communicating.
No, I have a rant. It's Friday and not 60 degrees!
Originally Posted by Daryl
uh oh..... did that sound like a rant? I'm not angry or anything. I was laughing while writing it. Man, I've got a problem communicating.
But it'll be 57 domani!
No, Daryl, I'm just chiming in and blowing off my own steam, which I did in the proceeding post.
Leaving school so "see ya later."
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
It did not take much to smoke you out on that one, Daryl! I do not think tracing a straight plane line is up for the compensation of the year award. I do know (experentially) that on an inclined plane DOWN goes with OUT. How can the ball go straight just on the merits of a square to the target face angle when the club head is clearly moving out? Ballflight and Trackman seems to confirm the validity of the d-plane concept. If anything Homer encouraged the separate identities of target line, plane line and stance line. knowing how to utilize the various options seems more like ball striking ability and less like compensation
Thanks for the welcome back! Let my march towards a thousand posts continue!
I'm glad you're back Okie. You've always been a pleasure to talk with and I'm looking forward to your thoughts.
At the very heart of “Golf Swing” is “What makes the Ball do what it does”. Without this rational, we couldn’t decide how to strike the ball and make it go where we want. As important, we couldn’t “Improve” because we’re unaware of what to do and how doing more or less determines Ball Flight. Currently, there are two theories about “What Causes Spin” and one theory about “what happens” when the Ball Spins.
The science supporting the Golfing Machine concerns Compression”, “Impulse”, etc., and states:
Quote:
“The ball will respond to non-linear (angular) force exactly the same as to linear forces only if the application produce forces equally linear to the ball but not necessarily linear to anything external to the ball.
Briefly stated, it is necessary to find a way to compress the ball through a particular point along a particular line, and maintain this compression through the same particular point and along this same particular straight line, through the entire arc of the Impact Interval, and with geometrical precision for consistent control. Study 2-K and 2-N.”
Jorgensen theorized:
Quote:
“Frictional torque comes into play to set the ball spinning. We can only guess at the details of the collision, but we can use some physics to make an educated guess.“
For the most part, this is where Jorgensen’s theorizing ends. His goal was to present a descriptive account of Ball Flight, and the “D-Plane” serves well by predicting the Ball Flight of a “spin producing collision”.
The confusion is not about what happens when the ball spins. Both Homer Kelley and Jorgensen explain Ball Flight by describing that “Lift forces” are perpendicular to the Axis of Rotation of the Ball.
The "Debate" is about what "Caused the Ball to Spin". Jorgensen suggests that it has more to do with the ball sliding up the face of the inclined striker. The Pivot closes the Clubface very evenly while the Clubhead travels its Orbital Path. It is very important to Jorgensen that the Clubface maintains a constant relationship to the Clubhead Orbit because any change in Clubface Alignment will change the amount of spin.
It's "important", in a way, that a location is chosen to take the Clubface Angle and Clubhead Path (Angular force) reading. Impact? Separation? Somewhere in between? In a way, it's not important because as long as the Clubface is closing at a constant rate, the calculation can be adjusted to read before, during or at Separation. Hmm? the math can be done before and after also.
A very significant math problem appears when you treat the Ball as Low-Point with out the Ball being Positioned at Low-Point. I can go into great detail but this post is already becoming boring for readers.
When we think of the Clubhead going Down, out and Forward, it's in relation to the Planes orientation to the ground. The reality is much simpler. The Sweetspot of the Clubhead is an Orbit. It wants to stay on an Orbit.
The Golfing Machine is very different. We know that "Hinging" will cause the Ball to respond to an Angular Force the same as it would respond to a Linear Force.
For an excellent understanding of the purpose and affect of Hinging, please refer to the following post:
To me it is a matter of learning how to hit it straight and then learn to aim it. To me the inside out cut shot achieves the same result. Took a beginner, taught him how to hit a little punch shot that initially was a push-slice. We worked on the club face angle (mainly by matching it up with the clubhead path. first push-fades, then finally just pushes. Next we just started to rotate everything to the left until the ball was on target. He had 3 polies over the course of 30 or so shots. I was disgusted!
Hybrid Mode
