Thanks, OB. Yeah, I guess that's the essence of my question....why would a clubface that is open to the clubhead arc at impact and square at separation (horizontal hinging) allow the original contact points to remain intact through the interval but a clubface square to the clubhead arc at both impact and separation (angles hinging) would not?
Thanks, OB. Yeah, I guess that's the essence of my question....why would a clubface that is open to the clubhead arc at impact and square at separation (horizontal hinging) allow the original contact points to remain intact through the interval but a clubface square to the clubhead arc at both impact and separation (angles hinging) would not?
Know what you mean, its a head scratcher when you think of it in those terms.
The compensation for the slice tendency of Angled Hinging is a slightly closed clubface at Address, so no doubt its got to do with a "divergence" between face and path.
Like the ball wants to be "cradled" so its doesnt roll off the face. Im an old hockey player so it seems like that to me.......another game with a similar implement. Ive always wanted to hit one of those curved face golf clubs from yesteryear. Curved hockey sticks were the cats pajamas when they first came out. What once was a muffin turned into a rocket.
You are partially correct but you've missed some very valuable and important information.
For clarification, the Shaft and Clubface rotate around the same center, meaning, the Hinge Pin. HK, the "Shaft" isn't rotating around it's longitudinal center, but rather that it is moving on-plane around the Hinge Pin. The Clubface is also rotating around the Hinge Pin and not around the Longitudinal Center of the shaft. So, the Clubface is not rotating "normal to the path" when using any of the 3 Hinge Actions.
For additional clarification, there is another way to look at Hinge Action compared to the "Normal to the Path" rotation of the Clubface. In "Normal to the Path" rotation, the Clubface stays aligned to the Clubhead Orbit. This causes a corresponding Clubshaft Rotation around the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Golfclub. Hinging changes that. For Horizontal Hinging, the Longitudinal COG and Shaft, at Impact, are vertical, one above the other, due to the Mandatory Flat Left Wrist. They Both Rotate, together around the Hinge Pin but maintain their Vertical relationship to the Horizontal Plane (the associated Plane). This is very different than the Shaft continuing to rotate around the COG of the Golfclub as it would in a "Normal to the Face/Path" which is "Swiveling through Impact". In Angled Hinging, we have the same geometry except that the Hinge Pin is angled and the Longitudinal Center of Gravity of the Golfclub and Shaft maintain their relationship to the Angled Plane (Associated Angled Plane).
Trackman identifies "Spin Loft". This is probably very good to identify whenever you don't use Hinging. When not using Hinging, the Ball will roll on the clubface. TGM has such cases, for example, the Lob Shot, etc. For anyone using Hinging, Clubface Loft is considered at separation. TGM states that Vertical Line of Flight is a resultant force, and is a line bisecting the Line of Compression and the Rebound Direction. The Rebound Direction is 90 degrees to the line of compression (Angle of Approach, Angle of Attack). When striking a golf ball, if you lose the line of compression before separation, then you introduce scattered force vectors and it will result in scattered rebound vectors which will result in scattered resultant Force Vectors. That would be a Mis-Hit, poor execution unless done intentionally, and that will change the Vertical Line of Flight, Loft.
TGM considers "Smash Factor". It is not the quality of compression but how much of the ball was compressed. See Below: Also note that each line receives maximum compression.
When considering Layback, the Clubface is Laying Back relative to the Hinge. This is different than the "Normal to the Path" clubface layback that Trackman calculates because the Clubface is also closing about the Hinge Pin. In Angled Hinging, Layback does not necessarily lose compression because the Impact and separation points remain the same, but it will compress less of the ball by about 1/10,000 of an inch. Rather, Layback tilts the balls spin Axis.
Sorry, I don't know how to do multi-quotes. BUT, I never used the term "normal to the path". I don't even know what that means.
I'm very comfortable with my understanding of how the impact collision between ball and clubface create Initial Launch Conditions and the resulting ball flight, which comes not only from TrackMan, but from the many scientists who have researched this. I doubt that the book can add anything to the knowledge of the distinguished scientists who are the present-day experts in this field. I am simply just trying to understand what Kelley meant when he wrote the things he did.
Here's some measurable conditions of the impact collision which nobody is exempted from and some traditional golf instruction terms to describe them.....During the collision, the clubhead is moving. The direction of this movement at separation has a vertical direction, relative to the ground, called the Angle of Attack, and a horizontal direction along the ground, relative to the Target Line, called Clubhead Path. The "normal" (dictionary term) to the clubface at separation also has a vertical direction, relative to the Attack Angle, called Spinloft, and a horizontal direction, relative to the Target Line, called Clubface Angle. This is the language that I speak. Is is possible that someone could describe, in my "native" tongue, what Kelley is describing in 2-C-1?
Almost the same language. The horizontal component would be called angle or arch of approach, depending on what you're looking at. It may cause confusion if you label the horizontal component clubhead path. What do you then call the three dimensional (true) clubhead path?
Have the trackman researchers explained why Bubba has a much better smash factor than Tiger?
Lets list em all. That'd help things. Im not the right guy to be doing this but I'll throw out a few:
Angle of Attack = Angle of Attack
Target Line = Target Line
Vertical Swing Plane = Plane Angle (tgm)
Horizontal Swing Plane = Plane Line or Base Line
Who's got some more...........before I screw it up. OK Ill go out on a limb..
True Path = Clubhead line of Flight , clubhead orbit?
Low Point = Low Point
P.S. Nice illustrations there. Notice how the Club head orbit is inscribed on the face of the inclined plane etc etc Is there a visual equivalent to True Path described in Trackman?
Now THIS is good.....a willingness to "translate" TGM into other golf instruction languages. TrackMan is not going away. Neither is physical law. TrackMan is not the "evil one", and not the only entity that has done or is doing hard research on the impact collision. In fact, TrackMan has added very little to our basic understanding of the collision to what was presented by the team of internationally-renowned scientists who conducted the research from "Search For The Perfect Swing". What TrackMan has added, among other things, is the geometry of the swing plane through the impact zone, which you would think would be right up any TGM'ers alley.
Anyhoo, there is no TrackMan term for the 3D clubhead path, just the horizontal and vertical directions during impact. I would simply call it the Clubhead Arc.
And I was under the impression that the TGM definition of Target Line is the intended starting direction of the ball flight, not necessarily the straight line from the ball at address to where you want the ball to end up, which is the "traditional" definition.??
Also, it doesn't seem like TGM recognizes the fact that, in a swing of even moderate force, the shaft tip deflects downward, allowing the COG of the clubhead to align with the axis of the shaft at impact. Specifically, you can draw a straight line from the butt section of the shaft to the sweet spot of the clubhead. Why then, is there a distinction between the "shaft plane" and the "sweet spot plane".
Back to Swinger's Hinging....I guess I'm going to have to take Kelley at face value...which is to say, for maximum compression, and to keep the original contact points intact throughout the interval, the horizontal direction that the clubface is pointing, relative to the horizontal direction that the clubhead is traveling, must change in a closing direction during the impact interval. Any idea, in degrees, how much Kelley thought that the clubface closed during the interval? In other words, how open should the clubface be at address compared to fix for horizontal hinging?
The Shaft Tip is not directed Downward. The Hosel is Directed Upward. We swing the COG of the Clubhead and the COG of the Clubhead stays on Orbit. In other words, the shaft is complying with the pull of centrifugal force on the center of gravity of the clubhead.
Hinging doesn't close the face, the pivot closes the face. Hinging determines which of the 3 associated Planes the Clubface is aligned with while rotating through the Impact Interval.
Also, it doesn't seem like TGM recognizes the fact that, in a swing of even moderate force, the shaft tip deflects downward, allowing the COG of the clubhead to align with the axis of the shaft at impact. Specifically, you can draw a straight line from the butt section of the shaft to the sweet spot of the clubhead. Why then, is there a distinction between the "shaft plane" and the "sweet spot plane".
Thanks for the kind words.
Mr Kelley did in fact describe this toe drop, COG phenomenon you mention. Its even seen in photos of a demonstration he conducted available on this site.
What the heck could anyone have against Trackman? What sort of a person gets mad at a Machine.
Now THIS is good.....a willingness to "translate" TGM into other golf instruction languages. TrackMan is not going away. Neither is physical law. TrackMan is not the "evil one", and not the only entity that has done or is doing hard research on the impact collision. In fact, TrackMan has added very little to our basic understanding of the collision to what was presented by the team of internationally-renowned scientists who conducted the research from "Search For The Perfect Swing". What TrackMan has added, among other things, is the geometry of the swing plane through the impact zone, which you would think would be right up any TGM'ers alley.
Anyhoo, there is no TrackMan term for the 3D clubhead path, just the horizontal and vertical directions during impact. I would simply call it the Clubhead Arc.
And I was under the impression that the TGM definition of Target Line is the intended starting direction of the ball flight, not necessarily the straight line from the ball at address to where you want the ball to end up, which is the "traditional" definition.??
Also, it doesn't seem like TGM recognizes the fact that, in a swing of even moderate force, the shaft tip deflects downward, allowing the COG of the clubhead to align with the axis of the shaft at impact. Specifically, you can draw a straight line from the butt section of the shaft to the sweet spot of the clubhead. Why then, is there a distinction between the "shaft plane" and the "sweet spot plane".
Back to Swinger's Hinging....I guess I'm going to have to take Kelley at face value...which is to say, for maximum compression, and to keep the original contact points intact throughout the interval, the horizontal direction that the clubface is pointing, relative to the horizontal direction that the clubhead is traveling, must change in a closing direction during the impact interval. Any idea, in degrees, how much Kelley thought that the clubface closed during the interval? In other words, how open should the clubface be at address compared to fix for horizontal hinging?
I'm not sure who started bashing TrackMan. But it seems like you folks love to take a really nice, interesting discussion of differences and insights and turn it into a witch hunt run by teenage girls. Why throw out all the digs at TGM? Just relax and stick to the points of insight and building understanding. BTW, this is Lynn Blake Golf, not the TGM brand.
Sooner or later, we will discuss every golf-related thing in light of TGM, here, and Raquel Welch, and we will have a damn fine time doing it!
Now Max, why don't you just accept the fact that you don't have to argue with us to be our friend? Would you like some Doritos? A beer? (12 points on Weight Watchers-4 0z, Merde!)
Let's practice, shall we, and I'll begin.
"I think TrackMan sounds like an interesting attempt to creatively describe...."
And you say... "I think TGM agrees with this here using this term but says something different there...."
See, no bloodshed. "Peace On Earth To People of Good Will!"
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 12-14-2010 at 12:05 AM.
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