Hmm? I associate a Downstroke Plane shift with a Flip Releases but all Downstroke Plane Shifts don't have Flip Releases.
I'm not complaining about compensations. Players need them. I would be concerned if someone applies a compensation, although it works, for the wrong cause-effect.
I know you're not complaining about compensations. But you still believe they need to be there. It must be because you haven't been able to make the best out of an EP impact alignment for yourself.
My experience with the elbow plane is 100% the opposite of what you're saying. I get more lag pressure, I sustain the lag pressure longer, I basically get the same swing speed.
If I understand you guys correctly you're talking about "swinging left" on the Elbow Plane from a DTL perspective in Follow Through. If so how does the Right Shoulder keep the Hands down on that plane? Havent the Hands long since left their lagging the shoulders condition?
If you check my "apocalyptic" posts on accumulator 4 maybe you will be convinced that the shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands. But you have to keep powering the turn to take advantage of it.
I am not a fan of the swinging left term. It sounds like a swing plane manipulation. But I believe that when it's done in a good way it is only about sustaining the lag pressure and supporting the plane.
However, the swing plane is outside - in. But it is paired with a release that is strongly inside - out. Combine the two and you get a three dimensional impact and a divot down the target line.
If you check my "apocalyptic" posts on accumulator 4 maybe you will be convinced that the shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands. But you have to keep powering the turn to take advantage of it.
I am not a fan of the swinging left term. It sounds like a swing plane manipulation. But I believe that when it's done in a good way it is only about sustaining the lag pressure and supporting the plane.
The shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands? Perhaps we need to define what this means to each of us.
To me that means that the shoulders are powering the hands and that the Hands havent separated or accelerated away from the shoulders. Meaning the right elbow is fully bent , the left arm is still in contact with the left pec. So you havent Released at all. The power accumulators are remain fully loaded. Well at least 4 and 1....which in my book means 2 and 3 are still fully loaded too. Im thinking you must have a different meaning in mind for "stays ahead" , not sure.
Not saying there isnt a feel of turning the pivot hard , keeping the arms packed for elbow planers. But a real would be a different deal altogether. Wouldnt it?
The shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands? Perhaps we need to define what this means to each of us.
To me that means that the shoulders are powering the hands and that the Hands havent separated or accelerated away from the shoulders. Meaning the right elbow is fully bent , the left arm is still in contact with the left pec. So you havent Released at all. The power accumulators are remain fully loaded. Well at least 4 and 1....which in my book means 2 and 3 are still fully loaded too. Im thinking you must have a different meaning in mind for "stays ahead" , not sure.
Quote:
Yes I do have a different meaning. When your left hand is pointing at the ball, the axis that runs from your neck to your left shoulder is pointing towards the target, or perhaps slightly left of the target. That leaves at leas 90 degrees of accumulator #4 lag. If you are able to turn hard it will translate to more swing speed and more ball compression. The alternative is a left shoulder that stops turning before impact.
My point is that the shoulders will power the hands even if PP#4 isnt't being used at all. It is all in the geometry.
You can release all you want. As long as you don't stop turning the shoulders. This part of Acc #4 lag pressure is maximised when the shoulders are 90* ahead of the club head. The only key in practice is to keep turning hard until past impact.
I'm not inventing new forces here. This is plain mechanics.
Not saying there isnt a feel of turning the pivot hard , keeping the arms packed for elbow planers. But a real would be a different deal altogether. Wouldnt it?
It's real. If you don't believe it try to replace the left hand with something that hangs from your neck. I am confident that half or quarter strokes will be sufficient to feel the difference.
PS: Happy Christmas, OB Left. It has been a pleasure to agree and disagree with you in 2k10.
PS: Happy Christmas, OB Left. It has been a pleasure to agree and disagree with you in 2k10.
BerntR Didnt realize we'd be sneaking some more "disagrees" in before the new year....cool. It aint over till its over.
I love your thinking mans approach, keep em coming. Im being perfectly serious here. You make me think .........which is often kinda pathetic but hey Im trying.
Imbalanced ..... ya, that changes everything. So we've got the circular orbit , which seeks out a straight line given enough force (like a rock on a string) but we need to direct this straight line not through the ball in some manner (arc or angle of approach visual equivalent given parallax) but somewhere else? This somewhere else must be different for each club , for each swingweight for each ball position ..... how do we locate this moveable feast of somewhere elses?
That would make golf not difficult but impossible wouldnt it? Like looking at the ball through prism glasses? Which you can get when hitting out of water if you know what I mean.
The Aiming Point can move ...hmmm We direct the force at it and its not where the ball is ........necessarily. Hmmm On the same Delivery Line as the ball I believe to make up for the rate at which different club switch ends ..
Are you talking about different places located on the Delivery Line , clubhead path or outside or inside of it? Something in total conflict with Homer's directing the orbit or its straight line, plane line through the ball? Which would move the plane to this new somewhere else not through the ball.
Your reverse torque sounds like vertical to me......maybe steering even. Not being insulting here every body fights it. Put me on a mat for five minutes and Im doing it. Do you fight pulls but tend to miss both ways? Sounds like a compensational "reverse torque" to me if your answer is yes. Maybe I dont know what "reverse toque" means? Ah, in fact I know I dont know what it means.....
I know you're not complaining about compensations. But you still believe they need to be there. It must be because you haven't been able to make the best out of an EP impact alignment for yourself.
My experience with the elbow plane is 100% the opposite of what you're saying. I get more lag pressure, I sustain the lag pressure longer, I basically get the same swing speed.
We are not having a meeting of the minds although I think we agree on almost everything. It doesn't seem that way sometimes. This is one of those times.
Of course I think compensations are necessary. The truth according to what I've seen is that most players Improve because they apply the correct compensation for a personally preferred procedure or alignment. It's rare to find a player improve by eliminating compensations. I've worked my whole life toward that goal, and I've paid the price along the way by not improving until I had acquired "Alignment" knowledge.
I don't have a problem with the Elbow Plane except that you can't trace the Plane Line until the Plane Shift and you don't have On-Plane Right Shoulder support. Besides, the best golfers in the world have found compensations for those things.
Please bear with me during the following example.
If a Player uses a little Extensor Action with a Right Forearm Take-away procedure, he will Cock his Left Wrist by Bending his Right Elbow or raising his Arms, without cocking his Right Wrist. If a Player chooses not to use the Right Forearm Take-away procedure, he'll need to Cock the Left Wrist another way (compensation).
If a Player Cocks his Right Wrist, then he'll need to apply a compensation to Uncock the Right Wrist.
We are not having a meeting of the minds although I think we agree on almost everything. It doesn't seem that way sometimes. This is one of those times.
Yes, the differences are probably magnified at the expense of the common understanding. I can live with that. And I hope you can too. Cause I enjoy both the agreements and the disagreements.
I am not sure that the pictures we study show what we think they show. Actually I think we interpret what's going on plane wise is off the mark.
What's the most correct way of measuring the swing geometry? We look at the relationship between the hands and the clubhead - the line that runs from the hands through the sweet spot of the club. The area it covers throughout the swing is labeled as the inclined plane. And we attribute a great deal of value to it.
But what if we look at the hand path in separation and the clubhead path in separation? Elbow planers have their hands closer to their torso at address and impact. That's what keep them on the elbow plane. The shaft plane is raised during the back swing, which means that the hand path is pretty steep.
And overall the clubhead path can be quite steep as well for elbow planers. And perhaps steeeper than on the TSP. I don't think a TSP-er can take the club as high up as Furyk does and get away with it.
When Furyks swing was declared to be the most unfundamental at TGM he responded that he feels like he is swinging straight back and straight through. He doesn't feel like rerouting and plane shifting. Feel isn't real, I know that. But perhaps what we take from those pictures isn't real either. Perhaps Furyks application of force is much more straight back and forth than the photos might suggest. The golf stroke is a a 3D motion but we always look at it in two dimension. I wonder how good we are at seing the real force wectors that are working the club.
Look at Garcia:
Here, the clubhead has caught up with the hands when you look at the plane where the clubhead is going. (The up front view) But if we had a picture - not face on - but handpath - on - we would possibly see that there were still accumulator #3 lag present. Is he swinging left? Yes. But perhaps he has been swinging left all the time.
I say he is swinging left here:
It doesn't perhaps look like he is swinging left, but I say he is. The plane line of his hands' plane is pointing left of the target. His hands are too close to the ball here - and they will get even closer before they start moving left in our down the line view.
If he was on the TSP here he would be very close to thrusting all the PP# force he could produce right into the inside aft quadrant of the ball. But he is coming in with more accumulator #3 lag than the TSP-er and he needs to keep some of it in order to not place his sweet spot outside the target line. At this point his hands are already too close to the ball to go straight at the ball. And they will get even closer before they move away from the ball. He has to turn his hands to the inside. But the hands are already heading in that direction so it's not something he has to manufacture in the last instance.
I believe that "covering" the left arm with the right - as has been said earlier in this thread - really is a stroke that is powered along hands plane with an open plane line.
How shallow is the clubhead path really on the elbow plane? I don't know. We always look at the shaft angle and assume that the club goes where the hands has been. But in the big scheme of things the hands travel on a much steeper path than the clubhead. So how can the two move on the same plane?
Some of the flatness that we see is caused by accumulator #3 lag. Quite a lot actually. When I strike the ball on the elbow plane I use a lot more vertical force throughout than when I swing on the TSP. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like to do it. If you look at Garcia past impact his shaft angle has steepened quite a lot. I don't think that is caused by a reorientation of how he applies force. It is a direct consequence of reduced accumulator #3 lag. The club is in the process of catching up with the hands, and therefore the clubshaft is increaslingly reflecting the plane angle Garcia is thrusting on - and has been thrusting on for quite some time.
Take this as preliminary thoughts from me. I don't think I understand even half of what's going on here. But I am quite certain that the shaft angle we usually look at is quite deceptive.
Hybrid Mode
