Daryl,
Not sure why you haven't acknowledged Bernt's explanations of different RPM's for the left arm versus the clubshaft. I think he explained it clearly enough - If you have any left forearm rotation/upper arm rotation on the downswing - it will create greater RPM for the clubshaft than the arm.
It's important to understand Homer Kelley's context when he writes - this RPM discussion is similar to his writing's on wristcock or other concepts. When he describes wristcock as a vertical motion - doesn't mean that the left wrist is always vertical to the ground and it's motion is always vertical to the ground - becuase obviously it's not vertical to the ground and therefore it's not always making it's cocking motion vertical to the ground. If it did then yes the RPM's would be the same for the clubshaft and the arm - however in the real golfer the left wrist is rotating throughout the stroke (in relation to the ground). Look at 2K#4 and 2K-#5 - for on plane left wrist motion or vertical wrist action. Similarly 7-18 2nd paragraph discussing hand and clubhead RPM's the same - ASSUMING you are looking at an endless belt example 2-K#6.
He's writing in a certain context - part of that context is the fact that the biggest problem he saw was clubhead throwaway (different RPM's for the hands and the clubshaft given the most basic flail drawing). Much as he had said - in regards to hinge action - "no one does these things "perfectly" - perfectly meaning exactly horizontal or angles, or vertical - perfectly isn't used in regards to "optimal".
I feel it's important to understand the relevance of Homer Kelley's writings yet at the same time understand real issues/happenings as Bernt is noting in regards to noted differences in RPM's.
Great point, thanks.
The other little issue with the drawing is that the club always lays flat on the inclined plane , cocks up and down on the inclined plane , but the left arm is not on the Inclined Plane given any #3 Angle. The left arm and the Inclined Plane are only one and the same for the so called "theoretical left shoulder plane" , which is what seems to depicted here. For the more golf like plane angles the golf club does not cock in the direction of the left arm or the left shoulder. Meaning that blue Left ARm Flying wedge does not attach to the left arm and shoulder throughout the entire swing. At top it lays on the Inclined Plane, between the two arms. When the Left Wrist rolls off the Inclined Plane the Left ARm Flying Wedge does the same. At impact , through the ball they are as drawn.
I think. Its a head scratcher I know.
Could this be another reason for the use of the word "basic" in "basic rpm's"?
The other little issue with the drawing is that the club always lays flat on the inclined plane , cocks up and down on the inclined plane , but the left arm is not on the Inclined Plane given any #3 Angle.
OB
Daryl's drawing wasn't focused on the inclined plane, but the drawing is still relevent to it. The bottom edge of the triangle (clubshaft) is lying on the inclined plane from release to follow-though. The other lines are not related to the inclined plane, but are related to the plane of the left wristcock motion.
He could make it fancier to show the inclined plane/sweetspot plane, but I'm pretty happy with the artwork.
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Bagger
1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly
Yes the clubhead swivel can have a faster RPM than the left arm and shoulder, and it varies with release type and a bunch of other variables. Please reconcile that with rhythm for me.
I'm struggling with how to marry that with the way Daryl and I have interpreted rhythm.
__________________
Bagger
1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly
6-B-3-0
"Accumulator #3 is Rhythm control" and later he writes "Do both (horizontal and angled hinging) alternately until you see the distinct difference in the Rhythm and clubhead travel of all three of the roll procedures".
The amount of accumulator #3 motion - influences the clubhead travel - the distinct and different clubhead travel as felt/perceived by the player for each of the three hinge actions is Rhythm.
Clubhead travel, Rhythm - relate to RPM - rotations per minute - the number of angular degrees in which a "thing" travels in relation to a 360 degree circle. Take a short shot where the player hits three shots - all with the same RPM of the hands - each one the player uses a different hinge action - that's one example of different clubhead travel, different rhythm, different RPM's for the clubshaft and the same RPM for the hands.
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I'm cool with that, Hinge Action is already comprehended in the sketches that Daryl made and our discussions in this thread.
In essence, each hinge action differs in the left arm flying wedge "closing rate" because of clubhead travel. Hence each have their own ryhthm. Even though the left arm and clubhead may turn at different RPM's throughout the swing, the rhythm (RPM) of the flying wedge is constant for the hinge action in use.
FYI you and Bucket are the only two members allowed to apologize when posting.
If I'm wrong I'll apologize and shave my head.
__________________
Bagger
1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly
6-B-3-0
"Accumulator #3 is Rhythm control" and later he writes "Do both (horizontal and angled hinging) alternately until you see the distinct difference in the Rhythm and clubhead travel of all three of the roll procedures".
HK is referring to the Right Forearm Rolling about an Axis Perpendicular to the Horizontal, Vertical or Angled Plane. Those are the available "roll procedures". That ensures that while the Clubface is closing per the Pivot or Orbiting Arms, the Clubface becomes aligned to one of the associated planes.
The Term "roll procedure" is unique from the Clubface Turn and Roll brought about by the Pivot or Orbiting Arms, or Clubshaft Rotation using Swivel.
Originally Posted by Mike O
The amount of accumulator #3 motion - influences the clubhead travel - the distinct and different clubhead travel as felt/perceived by the player for each of the three hinge actions is Rhythm.
A greater #3 Accumulator Angle produces more Clubhead travel for all Three Roll Procedures. A rising tide raises all boats.
Originally Posted by Mike O
Clubhead travel, Rhythm - relate to RPM - rotations per minute - the number of angular degrees in which a "thing" travels in relation to a 360 degree circle. Take a short shot where the player hits three shots - all with the same RPM of the hands - each one the player uses a different hinge action - that's one example of different clubhead travel, different rythm, different RPM's for the clubshaft and the same RPM for the hands.
You're confusing "Swivel" and "Hinge". From the Swivel perspective, the Clubhead is experiencing travel distances because you're changing the amount of Swivel Rotation per inches of Hand travel. Swivel doesn't Align the Clubface to any associated Plane. The Clubface is Aligned to the Rotation of the Shaft.
Swivel is very different than Hinging.
Look at my dowel rod setups in post #74. Attach a Club alongside of the short dowel and as you rotate about the Axis, notice that the Clubface becomes associated with the same axis as the perpendicular pole. Then, you'll appreciate RPM per TGM.
You're confusing "Swivel" and "Hinge". From the Swivel perspective, the Clubhead is experiencing travel distances because you're changing the amount of Swivel Rotation per inches of Hand travel. Swivel doesn't Align the Clubface to any associated Plane. The Clubface is Aligned to the Rotation of the Shaft.
Swivel is very different than Hinging.
Look at my dowel rod setups in post #74. Attach a Club alongside of the short dowel and as you rotate about the Axis, notice that the Clubface becomes associated with the same axis as the perpendicular pole. Then, you'll appreciate RPM per TGM.
Daryl,
I may have missed alot in this thread - however I could see Bernt's point and since in your post #26 you stated "But because the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface remained aligned (Left Arm Wedge) during the 9-3 interval, they have the same Rhythm - RPM." I was just noting that when you have forearm or upper arm rotation with a number 3 accumulator- it will add (assuming it's in the direction of the target) to the RPM of the clubshaft and make it different than that of the arm/hand unit - regardless whether the left wrist remains flat and the flying wedge remains intact. That's all - nothing more.
P.S. Just so there is no confusion if someone is reading this post trying to learn - I'm assuming you meant Clubshaft and not Clubface - in the highlighted quote above.
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OB
Daryl's drawing wasn't focused on the inclined plane, but the drawing is still relevent to it. The bottom edge of the triangle (clubshaft) is lying on the inclined plane from release to follow-though. The other lines are not related to the inclined plane, but are related to the plane of the left wristcock motion.
He could make it fancier to show the inclined plane/sweetspot plane, but I'm pretty happy with the artwork.
Bagger nice to have you posting again. Are you saying that the left wrists direction of cocking is aligned towards the left shoulder despite the Inclined Plane Angle? Id maintain it cocks and uncocks on the Inclined Plane whilst the left hand is turned to plane. Making D's drawings accurate for a "left shoulder" plane , only.
Hybrid Mode
