When I say I would like for you to set up with a Trackman behind you when you do your videos, I am serious. I sincerely would like to see the numbers on your correct execution. You can rent a trackman for short duration. Wont trackman give a set of numbers that repeat if your stroke repeats? Wont there be some measurable data we can use? Your trackman numbers then, whether it captures the geometry perfectly or not, will give us more observations about how to correctly apply the geometric knowlege. I am not a stack and tilter but it seems they are making a similar video to be released soon that incorporates trackman. Would like to see that done from a more pure TGM approach. Your thoughts?
I would hope that Trackman will record the Ball Flights accurately and compute any minor differences in Geometry. That's not the problem. But, a problem does exist if you look at the numbers in the above video and conclude that a Driver should be swung with a different geometry than a Nine Iron. That they can be different is not the problem either. That they "Should be different for the same Player" is the problem.
In the above video, Trackman shows that it's possible to use different Plane Angles and Angles of Approach and Attack and still result in a straight shot. Really??? is that new??? No, of course not. But the teacher concludes that that's just the way things are. That's why I have a problem with the video and the teacher. That's not the way things are, should be or need to be. In the right hands, Trackman should be an asset to the teacher, but in the wrong teachers hands, it will be the undoing of a potentially good player, who's paying big bucks while being led to believe that this is the best solution.
Trackman is a TOOL. And, as it is with all "tools", it's ONLY as good as the person who uses it. If you as a teacher don't have a firm grasp of golf alignments, then maybe you should learn these first before you spend good money on an overpriced piece of equipment. The teacher in the video is very confident that what he teaches is fundamentally sound and correct. Nothing new about that, either.
I would hope that Trackman will record the Ball Flights accurately and compute any minor differences in Geometry. That's not the problem. But, a problem does exist if you look at the numbers in the above video and conclude that a Driver should be swung with a different geometry than a Nine Iron. That they can be different is not the problem either. That they "Should be different for the same Player" is the problem.
In the above video, Trackman shows that it's possible to use different Plane Angles and Angles of Approach and Attack and still result in a straight shot. Really??? is that new??? No, of course not. But the teacher concludes that that's just the way things are. That's why I have a problem with the video and the teacher. That's not the way things are, should be or need to be. In the right hands, Trackman should be an asset to the teacher, but in the wrong teachers hands, it will be the undoing of a potentially good player, who's paying big bucks while being led to believe that this is the best solution.
Trackman is a TOOL. And, as it is with all "tools", it's ONLY as good as the person who uses it. If you as a teacher don't have a firm grasp of golf alignments, then maybe you should learn these first before you spend good money on an overpriced piece of equipment. The teacher in the video is very confident that what he teaches is fundamentally sound and correct. Nothing new about that, either.
That's the scary part, interpretation. Another teacher is using TrackMan to declare there is no such thing as swing planes, even though TrackMan interprets planes and feeds the user the corresponding numbers. That's where AGENDA comes in. Making stuff up to put down other teachers. Saying TrackMan disproves the Imperatives is disingenuous and BS.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
That's the scary part, interpretation. Another teacher is using TrackMan to declare there is no such thing as swing planes, even though TrackMan interprets planes and feeds the user the corresponding numbers. That's where AGENDA comes in. Making stuff up to put down other teachers. Saying TrackMan disproves the Imperatives is disingenuous and BS.
Kevin
Yes, I agree one could make up support for almost anything. I would just like to see some data from an accomplished machine stroke on one. Just to see how the geometry is supported. These types of devices are not going away any time soon. They will become more available as time goes on. IMHOP, the TGM community has an opportunity to get out in front now. Somebody make a video!!!! That stack n tilt 2.0 "by the numbers" thingy is going to be popular. I want to see it and I'm not SNT. The same type of thing needs to be done by LBG. Seems like a good time since the "aligment 2" video never came out.
Last edited by IH82BOGEY : 01-23-2012 at 03:43 PM.
Reason: added verbage
Yes, I agree one could make up support for almost anything. I would just like to see some data from an accomplished machine stroke on one. Just to see how the geometry is supported. These types of devices are not going away any time soon. They will become more available as time goes on. IMHOP, the TGM community has an opportunity to get out in front now. Somebody make a video!!!! That stack n tilt 2.0 "by the numbers" thingy is going to be popular. I want to see it and I'm not SNT. The same type of thing needs to be done by LBG. Seems like a good time since the "aligment 2" video never came out.
I agree, it would be very interesting. I know YODA has spent time with a TrackMan, hopefully when his schedule allows, he'll jump in.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I agree, it would be very interesting. I know YODA has spent time with a TrackMan, hopefully when his schedule allows, he'll jump in.
Kevin
Yes,
What I'm saying is this. These trackman, flightscope type devices are not far from being proliferated. It doesnt matter if you like it or not. It doesnt matter if you think they are doorstops. They are a comin. An analogy would be TV in the 50's, Computers in the 80's and cell phones in the late 90's. These devices will be used whether fair or unfair to evaluate different schools of thought when it comes to the golf swing. It will be up to the proponent of a particular school of thought to defend his numbers. For example, people at home will be comparing the ballistics of Hoganish rotary type swing patterns (swinging left) to stackandtilt to pure TGM and so on. I am not saying that trackman is a perfect device and should be used as the teacher. I am not saying it is not without fault. I am saying it will become more like V1 software, where you can select the pro you want to model. In my opinion, the instructors will be forced into defining what the numbers are for their preferred stroke patterns very soon. I want someone like Mr. Blake to be the one defining (in terms of this type of data) what a G.O.L.F. stroke is before someone else declares it to be incorrect.
Yes,
What I'm saying is this. These trackman, flightscope type devices are not far from being proliferated. It doesnt matter if you like it or not. It doesnt matter if you think they are doorstops. They are a comin. An analogy would be TV in the 50's, Computers in the 80's and cell phones in the late 90's. These devices will be used whether fair or unfair to evaluate different schools of thought when it comes to the golf swing. It will be up to the proponent of a particular school of thought to defend his numbers. For example, people at home will be comparing the ballistics of Hoganish rotary type swing patterns (swinging left) to stackandtilt to pure TGM and so on. I am not saying that trackman is a perfect device and should be used as the teacher. I am not saying it is not without fault. I am saying it will become more like V1 software, where you can select the pro you want to model. In my opinion, the instructors will be forced into defining what the numbers are for their preferred stroke patterns very soon. I want someone like Mr. Blake to be the one defining (in terms of this type of data) what a G.O.L.F. stroke is before someone else declares it to be incorrect.
Whoa Hoss, I didn't call TM a door stop, but they will never be ubiquitous while the price is so high. Hopefully in my lifetime it will be affordable for all, and we will be silly not to have it as part of the tool box, but they better move quick...
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Personally, while I can see these types of aids can certainly be put to constructive use, as stated earlier, one must consider the source when it comes to interpretation. I was recently in a store and watched a fellow hitting balls into a screen and a sales person then telling him what he needed based on the numbers he had on his computer. The only thing I could see that he needed was lessons. He walked out with a new offset driver with a soft shaft.
I would hope that Trackman will record the Ball Flights accurately and compute any minor differences in Geometry. That's not the problem. But, a problem does exist if you look at the numbers in the above video and conclude that a Driver should be swung with a different geometry than a Nine Iron. That they can be different is not the problem either. That they "Should be different for the same Player" is the problem.
In the above video, Trackman shows that it's possible to use different Plane Angles and Angles of Approach and Attack and still result in a straight shot. Really??? is that new??? No, of course not. But the teacher concludes that that's just the way things are. That's why I have a problem with the video and the teacher. That's not the way things are, should be or need to be. In the right hands, Trackman should be an asset to the teacher, but in the wrong teachers hands, it will be the undoing of a potentially good player, who's paying big bucks while being led to believe that this is the best solution.
Trackman is a TOOL. And, as it is with all "tools", it's ONLY as good as the person who uses it. If you as a teacher don't have a firm grasp of golf alignments, then maybe you should learn these first before you spend good money on an overpriced piece of equipment. The teacher in the video is very confident that what he teaches is fundamentally sound and correct. Nothing new about that, either.
There is no doubt that trackman should be used as a tool and not the doctor. People that use it to attack folks are as in the wrong as people that think it's useless or a symbol of evil.
Daryl, I do have a few questions for you: Please keep in mind Im not trying to attack or debunk, I have my opinions and beliefs, you have yours....that's fine. Im genuinely interested in your answers.
(1) Do you think there is one straight correct plane for all clubs after only a minor change in ball position through the bag?
(2) Why do golf balls do different things when the same club is hit more and less down on with the same clubface?
(3) Do you see guys on tv all swinging straight?, and if not, are they wrong or at least inefficient?
(4) How thick is the correct plane? If my analyzing software draws lines that are twice as thick as yours, do they still count? 3x? How many clubshaft widths could fit in one plane before it's off plane?
(5) If a certain attack angle creates a certain path and shot, but you want to alter the shot, and rotate the whole plane line to do so........doesn't that change the attack angle AGAIN? Wouldn't we end up continuously rotating around in a circle?
Just in straight away lehman's terms will do. I have conceded that you are smarter than me.
Thanks for the questions. I'm trying to keep my posts above O.B. Left. He seems to be gaining on me.
Originally Posted by JTillery
There is no doubt that trackman should be used as a tool and not the doctor. People that use it to attack folks are as in the wrong as people that think it's useless or a symbol of evil.
Daryl, I do have a few questions for you: Please keep in mind Im not trying to attack or debunk, I have my opinions and beliefs, you have yours....that's fine. Im genuinely interested in your answers.
(1) Do you think there is one straight correct plane for all clubs after only a minor change in ball position through the bag?
Not at all.
Originally Posted by JTillery
(2) Why do golf balls do different things when the same club is hit more and less down on with the same clubface?
The Right Forearm Angle of Approach is 3 dimensional. Because of this, any Change in Angle of Approach will change the Angle of Attack and a change in Angle of Attack will change the Angle of Approach unless you move the ball directly along the 3 dimensional path. If you don’t move the ball directly along this path, then a straight line of compression cannot be achieved and unless it was intentional then you’ll pay the price. Unfortunately, as history demonstrates, you will not get knowledge in return for suffering. You will not learn from your mistakes.
Originally Posted by JTillery
(3) Do you see guys on tv all swinging straight?, and if not, are they wrong or at least inefficient?
You won’t post scores low enough to compete if you bend the Plane Line. Do you mean Parallel Plane and Target Lines? I think that most of the greatest Players that ever lived did not use parallel Plane and Target Lines.
Originally Posted by JTillery
(4) How thick is the correct plane? If my analyzing software draws lines that are twice as thick as yours, do they still count? 3x? How many clubshaft widths could fit in one plane before it's off plane?
Thickness is not a Plane dimension.
Originally Posted by JTillery
(5) If a certain attack angle creates a certain path and shot, but you want to alter the shot, and rotate the whole plane line to do so........doesn't that change the attack angle AGAIN? Wouldn't we end up continuously rotating around in a circle?
If, when you rotated the Plane line, you relocated the ball the same distance behind Low-Point, then Angle of Attack and Approach won't be altered. Then, all that remains, is the change in divergence between Plane and Target Lines. IMHO, this is how a True Swinger should approach curving the Path of the Ball (because a True Swinger always uses the same Right Forearm Angle of Approach). So, a True Swinger would rotate Plane and Target Lines to create a divergence, while a Hands Manipulated Swinger would move the ball, one way only (such as moving the ball back on the plane-line without changing the Plane Angle (actually, it simultaneously Flattens the Plane Angle (increases Angle of Approach) and Steepens the Angle of Attack)), and thereby, creates the divergence by changing the relationship between Angle of Attack and Approach. Fades and Draws for True Swingers and Hooks and Slices for Hands Manipulated Swingers. BUT, and this is very critical for you to understand, that both procedures are On-Line. Both, the Hands Manipulated and True Swingers are always On-Plane, never crossing the Line by trying to Swing Inside-out or Outside-in. In other words - in simple terms - never create a Plane Line to the Left of Target and Swing to the Right of Target - that would be crazy.
I wonder if any of this is in the "Trackman User Manual"?
All of it is in the little Yellow Book.
Hybrid Mode
