However where the problem begins is that the player’s perspective is not (visually) directly on the plane- your head is well above the angled plane looking down on it. That causes a condition or illusion whereby if you try to thrust towards the ball out on the plane line you can get you hands too far out from you, requiring you to un-cock your wrist, steepen the shaft plane and NOT have your hands moving on that single plane you had envisioned. It would un-cock your left wrist in a “reverse manner” i.e. hands moving up, not the club being pulled out – creating reduced power. In addition, the off-plane motion becomes a problem.
Nice to hear from you Mike . You've taken some time to compose this thread so I want to make the effort to understand you fully . I don't have an opinion to be frank , as I don't follow you. Nothing new in the world of Homer Kelley, eh?
Couple of questions for clarification :
-Are you saying the above will happen given an attempt to thrust along the eye line to the ball? The eye line to the ball being steeper than the plane angle.
-Dont understand how in your geometry the hands would be moving "up" and uncocking the left wrist which makes me think I've lost you somewhere.
Ive always imagined the Aiming Point Procedure as being , from Top a throwing like motion towards the aiming point (normally the ball but you can adjust fore and aft to fight the rate at which the various lengths of levers switch ends. Hey have you ever goofed with a MOI matched set of irons?) A throwing or spearing chucking like motion but the geometric equivalent to Tracing albeit with a very different set of intentions and probably physics too. Thats my take on it in short.
By the way , your logic makes me see a complication with Plane Shifts on the downswing (very common in the field) Which would have the straight line direction of Thrust travelling a single plane angle which is above the curved (from DTL) path of the hands would it not? Hmmm.
1-Are you saying the above will happen given an attempt to thrust along the eye line to the ball? The eye line to the ball being steeper than the plane angle.
2-Dont understand how in your geometry the hands would be moving "up" and uncocking the left wrist which makes me think I've lost you somewhere.
Regards
ob
OB,
To limit the discussion I've picked out the above two questions. Could always cover the others in future posts if you want to re-ask or pursue them. However, the above two questions I percieve to be most on topic.
1-Are you saying the above will happen given an attempt to thrust along the eye line to the ball? The eye line to the ball being steeper than the plane angle.
Yes that's basically it. However, let me clarify. Again, just to keep this simple we're using a single plane downswing. The fact that your head and eyes are above the swing plane looking towards the ball - and you naturally thrust- i.e. move towards where your eyes are looking - that is getting your hands to cover the ball visually i.e. eventually get between your eyes and the target. It seems counter intuitive to make an on-plane motion i.e. hands & clubshaft headed to the ball by visually directing them somewhere else than the ball - but that is what you need to do from your vantage point above the plane.
Clarification: The hands don't thrust down the eye line but since they start flatter than that - in this aiming point concept they'll have a tendency to eventually end up on the eye-line - then the hands will move above the original single plane downswing.
Based on various factors I'm not saying that the hands will end up between the eyes and the ball however they'll have a tendency to move towards that - steepening the plane - if you are thrusting towards the ball. By steepening the plane - I mean the clubshaft plane at impact. Becuase the hands move above the original single plane that we started with - the hands actually moved flatter - ended up above the original single plane - requiring the shaft to be steeper in order to hit the ball - which the uncocking allowed to happen.
Here's one example of what I would use as an experiment to see this for yourself. Sit in your desk chair at the house and lean the grip end of a club on the armrest and have the clubhead on the floor ahead of your feet - basically representing a plane angle. Note where the plane line would be, the ball etc., now take your hands down that shaft angle, having the hands move in front of your body like a real swing and see if you feel as if they are moving towards a point inside the plane line. Now do the other option - thrust them at a point on the plane line and see when they get to impact if they are slightly above the plane.
This falls under the category and you have to understand what perspective you are analyzing movement - on the one hand the hands are coming right down the plane towards the plane line from a 3rd person perspective, however with that same movement - from the 1st person perspective - you can't be trying to move them towards the plane line given your perspective. What's happening and what you are trying to do to make that happen are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. That's an important principle that the golf industry and probably the scientific movement industry has not yet understood.
2-Dont understand how in your geometry the hands would be moving "up" and uncocking the left wrist which makes me think I've lost you somewhere.
Good question for clarificaton - what I meant was compared to the original single plane - that is the hand position at the top - through to the ball/plane line - when using the aiming point on the plane line as discussed above. The hands would tend to be higher at impact than the original plane - so you could say that the hands would move flatter from the top - creating higher hands at impact - and therefore to hit the ball - a steeper shaft - allowed by uncocking the wrist more. You make a good point - the hands don't move up - just less down and higher than the original single plane that we are using in our theoretical example to understand the concept. Therefore I was saying that you'd be more uncocked just in order for the clubhead to hit the ball than the original single plane.
Appreciate the questions - allowed me to learn a few things myself and completely understand why you would be asking those as it wasn't clearly explained in my original outline. Check it out for yourself and look forward to your feedback.
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
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First-I agree with you.
Second- The Aiming Point Concept still needs a real conversation.
Question- Re: First
Thesis, The Aiming Point is located on the plane line and lifting the hands is a concern. If, My aiming point is on the plane line at the left rear quadrent of the ball. How the heck am I going to hit the ball and maintain alignments ???
Question- Re: Second
What I said above and in #3 ?
HB
Last edited by HungryBear : 05-10-2012 at 08:38 AM.
Thesis, The Aiming Point is located on the plane line and lifting the hands is a concern. If, My aiming point is on the plane line at the left rear quadrent of the ball. How the heck am I going to hit the ball and maintain alignments ???
HB
You wouldn't hit the ball AND maintain alignments.
However, what alignments are you worried about and/or referring to? Again theoretically, let's say you wanted the hands and clubshaft to BOTH move on the same downswing plane into impact. That wouldn't happen in my example in my previous post. So that's one "alignment" that wouldn't be maintained - an on plane hand and clubshaft motion. If you started with a level lead wrist - then that's a second alignment that wouldn't be maintained.
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
The Aiming Point Concept still needs a real conversation.HB
The fact that people mis-understand a Golfing Machine concept is nothing new - you can see it every day. Does any concept need real conversation for those that don't understand it - absolutely. I think his quote in the first post of this thread is quite clear. I guess you'd either need to ask a question, make a statement, or argue a point to begin the conversation. However, we'd need to clarify - is the conversation about the Golfing Machine concept as understood in the Golfing Machine book or are you wanting a conversation with new information or perspective, otherwise it would become quite confusing for some.
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
The fact that people mis-understand a Golfing Machine concept is nothing new - you can see it every day. Does any concept need real conversation for those that don't understand it - absolutely. I think his quote in the first post of this thread is quite clear. I guess you'd either need to ask a question, make a statement, or argue a point to begin the conversation. However, we'd need to clarify - is the conversation about the Golfing Machine concept as understood in the Golfing Machine book or are you wanting a conversation with new information or perspective, otherwise it would become quite confusing for some.
As I explained, I was looking for increased power with better understanding and based on the last night's implementation of Whip's insight at the range, Extensor Action is easier to implement and power on plane is easier as a result.
I recognized some of the subtleties last night but mainly in terms of Lynn's video clips. As a visual learner, I really have to read the book often and let it perc until a video clicks in.
For some reason, lots of the quotes I search out seem really clear. Anyway...
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
The fact that people mis-understand a Golfing Machine concept is nothing new - you can see it every day. Does any concept need real conversation for those that don't understand it - absolutely. I think his quote in the first post of this thread is quite clear. I guess you'd either need to ask a question, make a statement, or argue a point to begin the conversation. However, we'd need to clarify - is the conversation about the Golfing Machine concept as understood in the Golfing Machine book or are you wanting a conversation with new information or perspective, otherwise it would become quite confusing for some.
Let it start with The Book, should it stray call it up short then.
Statement- I (likely many) have spent time trying to train my hands to make a motion that obeys "good" alignments rules, even, when this training caused me to miss hit.
Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.
Statement - Experimenting with "points" on the plane line has not been a helpful concept for me.
Ah-ha moment. Reading 7-23 par. #3, HK may have insight in recognizing line delivery and compensations when necessary.
Understand it I may experiment. My procedure had been, If U care, to have a "feel" fo release position backing up from impact fix, a practice memory over the range of clubs.
HB
Last edited by HungryBear : 05-10-2012 at 08:25 PM.
Let it start with The Book, should it stray call it up short then.
Statement- I (likely many) have spent time trying to train my hands to make a motion that obeys "good" alignments rules, even, when this training caused me to miss hit.
Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.
Statement - Experimenting with "points" on the plane line has not been a helpful concept for me.
HB
Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.
Big Subject Hungry Bear - let's try to limit it to the basics to begin with.
7th edition revision
8. PG 83, 6-E-2, new paragraph "Remember - Aiming Point concerns only - 1. Clubshaft Length, 2. Handspeed and, 3. Release Point - regardless of Ball Location."
This is the essence of the aiming point procedure. Now, let's use the same player so we have the same handspeed - simplifies the variables in our theoretical discussion of the concept. Now, you have different length clubshafts and the longer ones take longer to come "in-line", so you need to release those earlier. One way of creating an automatic release is via the aiming point concept. If you move it back of the ball you release earlier if you move it forward of the ball you release later. So theoretically these aiming points are going to change with the length of the club - for the same player, same handspeed. That is the longer the club the more you move the aiming point back.
Statement - Experimenting with "points" on the plane line has not been a helpful concept for me.
Same for me. Procedurally/practically you are not consciously picking different aiming points for different length clubs. You are subconsciously and via feel because you wouldn't pick a aiming point well forward for a driver as you would a wedge - you would intuitively sense that you wouldn't have time to release the driver in time for a square contact.
This brings up a Golfing Machine issue - he writes with precision and A) you wonder if you are not being precise enough in implementation and B) you wonder if you fully understand his concepts, how they tie together, etc. Brings up a good story - Trigger types - one of the last things he put in the book - he figured something must trigger the release. Again, another "natural" item - you do it but not really on a calculated conscious perspective. These guys are in one of his classes and really trying to dig down and understand these trigger types - like how do I do it, use it, etc. - one of the few times you heard HOmer "lose it" or sense his frustration and he just said something to the effect that when you get here - point in the downswing - you push your arm for a arm throw trigger - just something really simple.
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
Question- What is the "aiming point concept" trying to "adjust" in my alignments? ie. is it impact hand location for the various clubs?, release hand location for the various clubs and release types? I am trying to understand the "what and why" and fit it in.
I concur with Mikes response above .
Impact hand location is another concept , related perhaps but different. Nothing wrong with monitoring that procedurally although it could be argued that those who think that is one and the same as the aiming point procedure are missing out on what Homers aiming point procedure really was.
The Aiming Point can be adjusted fore and aft of the ball along the Delivery Line of the Clubhead (not the plane line for balls back of low point) . If for example a player tends to leave his long levered driver shots to the right , moving the Aiming Point aft (back towards the right foot) of the ball a few inches will trick him or her into releasing earlier or perhaps more forcefully . This aids in the squaring of the face by impact. Ones Aiming Point can therefore change on a day by day basis.
Thats my take on it anyways. The other benefit is that it adds down and out to the stroke , to ones intentions. A throwing like motion at the aiming point precludes the common malady of swinging forward towards the target, Steering.
Impact hand location is another concept , related perhaps but different. Nothing wrong with monitoring that procedurally although it could be argued that those who think that is one and the same as the aiming point procedure are missing out on what Homers aiming point procedure really was.
The Aiming Point can be adjusted fore and aft of the ball along the Delivery Line of the Clubhead (not the plane line for balls back of low point) . If for example a player tends to leave his long levered driver shots to the right , moving the Aiming Point aft (back towards the right foot) of the ball a few inches will trick him or her into releasing earlier or perhaps more forcefully . This aids in the squaring of the face by impact. Ones Aiming Point can therefore change on a day by day basis.
Thats my take on it anyways. The other benefit is that it adds down and out to the stroke , to ones intentions. A throwing like motion at the aiming point precludes the common malady of swinging forward towards the target, Steering.
Ok, I feel like an idiot, again!
It wasn't until trying the Aiming Point concept the other evening that I realized I had never really dragged PP # 3 anywhere on purpose, ever, not to the mall, not to McD's, not to Minnesota or Wisconsin!
Playing with the metal broomstick one of my students was nice enough to break for me and I felt it!!! No, not Agina, but PP # 3! We had an old cardboard box filled with trash I had marked the outside of with the stick before. Ehmm, suddenly, I cut it in half with a controlled Ax-handle drive thinking only of planting the left heel with a pre-turned hip and pulling the EA loaded PP # 3 to the box!
I came home and alternately made my impact bag jump up and straight back with my Angle Hinge and spin left with my Horizontal Hinge!
The problem? I flexed the clubs on every shot!!!! And I did it on purpose!!!!
DRAG THE MOP, DRAG THE DOG, DRAG PP # 3 TO THE AIMING POINT!
Thanks guys! The challenge will be to play with the soft shafts I Have tomorrow! My ball is about to "act a whole lot different!"
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 05-11-2012 at 05:00 PM.
Hybrid Mode
