Here is where my fog is: (not saying I'm right,etc but better than saying "I think" or "in my opinion" every sentence).
From dictionary.com:
weight: Physics. the force that gravitation exerts upon a body, equal to the mass of the body times the local acceleration of gravity.
So in physics weight is force, or pressure that can be sensed.
Kelley does describe club head lag pressure as a careful nursing of clubhead feel. The main thing that comes from lag pressure is the ability to feel the club head. I'm not sure how to reconcile club head lag pressure (strict definition) with the force that gravitation exerts upon the clubhead (at top).
Regardless, both "situations" produce force which the hands most certainly can feel. The hands now have club head feel. Then they do what is needed not to lose the sensed pressure (clubhead lag pressure is "always loading" - feel the wet mop head through impact). Including telling the body to make the necessary movements not to lose club head feel.
No- this is not a "swing the clubhead- feel the clubhead golf swing." You do not hit the ball with the clubhead- you hit the ball with your Hands- the pressure points in your Hands. Clubhead LAG Pressure is in the hands. Clubhead lag Pressure is not in the clubhead, either. And no- its weight unless change resistant- is neither Lag or Lag pressure.
I have tried to explain TGM concepts that are Hands Controlled Pivot but you only want the Swing the Clubhead/dance with the club type of stroke. The pivot works as trained- independently, intuitively, instinctively, and automatically. Trained, trusted and ignored by the Hands.
If you watch the last third of the clip, you will see Lynn Blake demonstrated the Start Down Waggle as he explains the start down sequence- Hip slide- Instant Acceleration and no self moving Hands (at that point of the stroke). You will see how the pivot sets the hands On Plane- not off, how the hip turn, sets up the right shoulder and right arm On Plane- not off.
But you will see pivot control hands because you want a Hands that Slave a Pivot. Nagging Hands. You feel better with a Hands in motion and let the body turn when needed.
This is how a 12-1-0 or 12-2-0 Golfing Machine G.O.L.F. Stroke works with well Educated Hands controlling the stroke and pivot.
No- this is not a "swing the clubhead- feel the clubhead golf swing." You do not hit the ball with the clubhead- you hit the ball with your Hands- the pressure points in your Hands. Clubhead LAG Pressure is in the hands. Clubhead lag Pressure is not in the clubhead, either. And no- its weight unless change resistant- is neither Lag or Lag pressure.
Good luck.
10-19-C (first sentence) "Lag Loading (Clubhead Feel)." I totally agree you hit the ball with the hands. Club head feel is what enables you to to so, because in reality, the club head is what strikes the ball. There has to be a connection with the hands and the clubhead. "its weight unless change resistant" I don't understand this. Just thinking - I believe all weight (force) is change risistant. If this is not a feel the club head swing - how do you direct the clubhead with the hands? Your hands must sense something to direct.
The pressure in your hands is a direct result of what is happening with the clubhead when you make certain movements (drive your hands or make movements that stop the driving of your hands). In other words, the driving of your hands causes the RESULTING ACTION of the club head to transmit pressure that is sensed in the hands. Club head lag pressure is not sensing the driving of your hands (and the hands are driven by accum), but sensing the clubhead via your hands.
6-C-2 CLUBHEAD LAG
"It can be any one or any combination of pressure points selected to Sense CLUBHEAD Acceleration rate and direction" Use Clubhead lag to feel the clubhead.
Also I think there is something to the fact that the glossery does not state, in its definition of Clubhead lag, "resistance of inertia to change in direction", but rather just and only "resistance of inertia to change" (direction and acceleration).
6-C-2-0 Picture Club head at top of swing. per caption "Clubhead lag" (established)
I don't think an independent pivot is 12-1 or 12-2. I believe the hands by sensed pressure, dictate to the pivot (5-0). Thae hands are, by far, are the most reliable parts of the body, when it comes to maintaining a precise hand relationship to the plane line.
As you pretty much stated, no changing each other. Thanks for the replies. If you haven't changed my thinking, it has given me reason to go back to the book in detail - always good.
No- this is not a "swing the clubhead- feel the clubhead golf swing."
That's the beauty of The Golfing Machine - Kelley tells us exactly how to feel the clubhead (through the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point) which is associated with "all over control" 7-19.
I don't think Kelley was at odds with greats like Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer.
That's the beauty of The Golfing Machine - Kelley tells us exactly how to feel the clubhead (through the Clubhead Lag Pressure Point) which is associated with "all over control" 7-19.
I don't think Kelley was at odds with greats like Ernest Jones and Percy Boomer.
No he wasn't. Certainly not Boomer.
DG- not absolutes, just trying to explain TGM 12-1-0 and 12-2-0. Yoda and Hull do a great job. You cannot find this information of Tomesello's video. He doesn't pull. Even a Hitter was a strong 'twitch' pull to set up the hands.
Im done trying to explain the differeence between weight and Lag. Swing the clubhead, SEC
And if you watch that video- you will not believe what you see. Your Hands are not as educated as you think if they need to micro manage a pivot. A correct take-away requires a turn. A down stroke requires a turn. And the Hands do NOT move themsleves at the very start- if they do they are way to active and might nopt find On PLANE by themselves. If they don't move themselves- what does?
Im done trying to explain the differeence between weight and Lag. Swing the clubhead, SEC
And if you watch that video- you will not believe what you see. Your Hands are not as educated as you think if they need to micro manage a pivot. A correct take-away requires a turn. A down stroke requires a turn. And the Hands do NOT move themsleves at the very start- if they do they are way to active and might nopt find On PLANE by themselves. If they don't move themselves- what does?
Take starting at impact fix. Cetainly the hands don't move themselves at the start. (they are frozen) Elbow, forearms guided by the brain to the nerves in the hands - hands knowing all along that the plane line must be traced. Body then responds.
There is no "muscle memory" in the hips that enables them to correctly turn in a precise fashion (or in shoulders, or in any part of any human).
That's just it with the hands controlled pivot. Do you move with brain attention to the hands or the hips or the shoulders? You can hit the ball by doing both. What method will be more precise? There is a reason why you do most everything in life through your hands.
Take starting at impact fix. Cetainly the hands don't move themselves at the start. (they are frozen) Elbow, forearms guided by the brain to the nerves in the hands - hands knowing all along that the plane line must be traced. Body then responds.
There is no "muscle memory" in the hips that enables them to correctly turn in a precise fashion (or in shoulders, or in any part of any human).
That's just it with the hands controlled pivot. Do you move with brain attention to the hands or the hips or the shoulders? You can hit the ball by doing both. What method will be more precise? There is a reason why you do most everything in life through your hands.
A well trained pivot allows the hands to do what is important. Go to the ball.
You say the Hands know the line to trace- then the Body responds. When does it respond- after the Hands move on their own or after the pivot starts or when?
A well trained pivot allows the hands to do what is important. Go to the ball.
You say the Hands know the line to trace- then the Body responds. When does it respond- after the Hands move on their own or after the pivot starts or when?
I'm a piece of sheet. Swing the clubhead dude.
Really, really. I'm not trying to argue. This has been a very, very good discussion. Obviously, I know you know a lot of TGM. I've done my fair share of study and memorizing this site. I don't think my tone (or didn't intend) to warrent "dude" and guilt trips "I'm a piece of sheet".
It is definitely not "Tomasello only" for me. I'm very on board with what the professionals on this site say.
I'm not sold on the uncocking of the right forearm terminology. What I can say with certainty is that from the top, the hands know the line they must trace - through training - obviously the hands screw up at times, or the pivot is faulty (due to pivot control) and screw up the hands. At the least, the hands' intent or knowing the line they must trace causes the hip slide. I'd say focus your mind on hand plane line tracing and let the hips respond.
Why wouldn't you train the pivot? Train it, get it ready to respond to the hands ( maybe the term is "oil it up").
Really, really. I'm not trying to argue. This has been a very, very good discussion. Obviously, I know you know a lot of TGM. I've done my fair share of study and memorizing this site. I don't think my tone (or didn't intend) to warrent "dude" and guilt trips "I'm a piece of sheet".
It is definitely not "Tomasello only" for me. I'm very on board with what the professionals on this site say.
I'm not sold on the uncocking of the right forearm terminology. What I can say with certainty is that from the top, the hands know the line they must trace - through training - obviously the hands screw up at times, or the pivot is faulty (due to pivot control) and screw up the hands. At the least, the hands' intent or knowing the line they must trace causes the hip slide. I'd say focus your mind on hand plane line tracing and let the hips respond.
Why wouldn't you train the pivot? Train it, get it ready to respond to the hands ( maybe the term is "oil it up").
I believe the pivot needs to be trained first before you learn a hand-controlled swing. Tracing the plane line with the hands will not automatically cause the hips to slide. You can trace a plane line with the arms moving from the shoulders only and no pivot.
Tomasello covers the pivot in his first Australian video.
Really, really. I'm not trying to argue. This has been a very, very good discussion. Obviously, I know you know a lot of TGM. I've done my fair share of study and memorizing this site. I don't think my tone (or didn't intend) to warrent "dude" and guilt trips "I'm a piece of sheet".
It is definitely not "Tomasello only" for me. I'm very on board with what the professionals on this site say.
I'm not sold on the uncocking of the right forearm terminology. What I can say with certainty is that from the top, the hands know the line they must trace - through training - obviously the hands screw up at times, or the pivot is faulty (due to pivot control) and screw up the hands. At the least, the hands' intent or knowing the line they must trace causes the hip slide. I'd say focus your mind on hand plane line tracing and let the hips respond.
Why wouldn't you train the pivot? Train it, get it ready to respond to the hands ( maybe the term is "oil it up").
If you're not sold on the uncocking of the right forearm from the top.....do you really understand longitudinal acceleration.
What is the dictionary definition of longitudinal that best describes its application to the golf swing?
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 06-03-2007 at 10:59 AM.
Im done trying to explain the differeence between weight and Lag.
I think i have it reconciled. Gravity, in a similar fashion to force exerted against the club (a force that is different from club head lag pressure) though Pressure points (for hand movement, resulting in club movement), is exterted against the clubhead. This is a change to the inert club head. The result of this change is pressure that is sensed by the hands. You may obtain clubhead feel through this pressure. Maintain it and create more by continuing to change, or drive the club head by moving the hands (as stated above, hand movement said knowing hands are indeed moved by pressure from accumulators) and allow the hands to sense it.
Hybrid Mode
