Startdown

[Mike O]

Start down loads Lag. Start down carries the power package. Start down is pivot Lag. Start down is where the fun begins.

Regarding: "Start down loads Lag"-
Start down is a defined section of the swing(8-7). Float loading is the only loading type that loads during the start down (7-19).
Does it really matter?

[12 piece bucket]

So if you don't take it back in a violent fashion . . . should you start it down about the same? Faster than the backswing or what?

According to Mr. Kelley the Swinger starts it down "quick" and then just "stays in front" . . . what does that mean? How quick? Why just stay in front do y'all think?

[6bmike]

Regarding: "Start down loads Lag"-
Start down is a defined section of the swing(8-7). Float loading is the only loading type that loads during the start down (7-19).
Does it really matter?

Does what really matter?

7-19-1: what resists the Backstroke motion? I think it is the start down.

Lag NEEDS to resist Inertia and move in the oppose direction.

Just my POV.

[Mike O]

Does what really matter?

7-19-1: what resists the Backstroke motion? I think it is the start down.

Lag NEEDS to resist Inertia and move in the oppose direction.

Just my POV.

Does what really matter? That's a good question-because it was purposely unclear what I was referring to. It was more meant just for me and my frustration of many people using terminology so loosely that what comes out at the other end isn't right and isn't productive. I was asking that in two perspectives- 1) Does it really matter to anyone that we should use precise definitions in regards to these concepts? and 2) Does it really matter if I'm a nitpicky, a-hole, forum poster? Does anyone really care about "my" details? Of course, I know Bucket does because it gives him ammo to bust my balls.

7-19-1: what resists the Backstroke motion? I think it is the start down.
No and Yes.
In the Golfing Machine "world"- the start down (8-7) is "the first move to the ball", to me it's really that portion of time from the visual perception of a third party - that the clubshaft is now moving on the downswing until "the motion settles into it's Delivery Line Path (7-23)". In that context- resisting the Backstroke motion is not part of the start down. To me that's clear by reading 7-19-1,2,3 and 8-7. Since I consider this a "Golfing Machine Forum"- I post within the context of the Golfing Machine. I don't post about what I think is wrong with the Golfing Machine. Nor do I post on other issues, procedures, ideas that I consider better, etc. If you want to understand the Golfing Machine- then I view my role as a helper for one to achieve that goal. I don't post to get someone beyond the Golfing Machine because it is tough enough just understanding the Golfing Machine without trashing it in the process. I think one should work to master it and then move on in the search of better and better information- once they believe that they have learned it in full. In summary, therefore I would think that in Homer Kelley's world - "resisting the backstroke" would not be part of the start down. Obviously, you could interpret that differently and I'm open to change.

Outside of the Golfing Machine- I would view the effort to start down on a neurological level - as the first stage in resisting the visual backstroke motion- followed by the visual startdown sometime later. So in that context, I would say Yes- the Start Down "effort" resists the "visual" Backstroke motion. (Now, I know I contradicted myself above in regards to not posting outside of the Golfing Machine world- and that's a general rule - but I wanted to acknowledge where I agree with you on this and support your statement in the context that it can be supported)


Lag NEEDS to resist Inertia and move in the oppose direction.

Lag IS the resistance to Inertia- it doesn't resist Inertia- something else resists inertia- I.E. your hands, pivot, muscle contractions, some kind of force, etc. Here is a sample sentence- Your hands resist the inertia of the club moving on the backswing which establishes lag.

In summary, I find it important if you really want to understand the Golfing Machine- to have clear definitions of what each concept is. I know that Mr. Kelley in teaching people the book would insist that one "maintain the identities" of each item- that each item has it's own character- it's own definition- it has it's own identity that must be maintained. I believe it was one of his fundamental guidelines that allowed him to be an ultimate problem solver. So to answer Bucket's first question "What is it?" The "Start Down" (in it's widest application) is a defined period of time during the golf movement (as noted in 8-7)- and time can't load lag, time can't carry a power package, time isn't Pivot lag. However, Start Down could be where the "fun begins". Food for thought.

[12 piece bucket]

[b][i]my balls.

Please . . . . . who are you trying to kid?

Hey Stinkpot . . . instead of puttin' on your "flamesuit" why don't you answer my question? So it's a period of time and a neuroloogicizal dealie . . . but is it gentle, hard or fast ? (This should be good).

[spike]

Imo, there is an awareness, that can be learned, in the relationship of the swinging club(in the backswing) and the wrists being loaded. Not to mention the feet. This also has a bearing on 12 bucket's, of whatever, good question he posed in The Golfing Machine-Basic section.

Feeling wise.....not terminology wise....the speed of the change of direction would seem to me based on the speed of the back move. This, imo, is a relationship that is very personal.

Now, I know i'm no where near as informed as you guys with TGM but I have honestly tried to answer this question, in this post and an earlier post. I also know that it is not good to rob a student of the dignity of self learning. I thank you for that, however, i put myself on the line in an earlier post and would like to know if i was way out of line or, even, just a bit close to answering the original question.

I am interested in learning about the golf swing. I will never be a GSED and i swear to God i hope I never have to stay in a Holiday Inn.

Love and Peace,
spike

[12 piece bucket]

Imo, there is an awareness, that can be learned, in the relationship of the swinging club(in the backswing) and the wrists being loaded. Not to mention the feet. This also has a bearing on 12 bucket's, of whatever, good question he posed in The Golfing Machine-Basic section.

Feeling wise.....not terminology wise....the speed of the change of direction would seem to me based on the speed of the back move. This, imo, is a relationship that is very personal.

Now, I know i'm no where near as informed as you guys with TGM but I have honestly tried to answer this question, in this post and an earlier post. I also know that it is not good to rob a student of the dignity of self learning. I thank you for that, however, i put myself on the line in an earlier post and would like to know if i was way out of line or, even, just a bit close to answering the original question.

I am interested in learning about the golf swing. I will never be a GSED and i swear to God i hope I never have to stay in a Holiday Inn.

Love and Peace,
spike

I think you are on it. I think Mr. Kelley used the term "quick" in a definite context (I could be wrong).

Quick relative to the hitter's startdown and quick in terms of reaching top handspeed in less time than the hitter.

I'd still like to hear how people load it . . . I think picking up the loading is huge . . . but to me it is more of a subtle deal.

[SECGolf]

I'd still like to hear how people load it . . . I think picking up the loading is huge . . . but to me it is more of a subtle deal.

Exclusive of float-loading, behave in a way from start down to follow through (and on to finish) in order to maintain and continue to load already established (for example - one can resist backstroke motion prior to start down) clubhead lag pressure (clubhead feel). Behavior includes the reaction of the body (reaction of the body can be practiced and trained - per 8-1).

As far as "quick" and not so quick start down, study and look at 2-C, the drawings of arc (swing procedure) and angle (hitting procedure) of approaches. With a quick start down (hurried) look how easy it would be to veer off plane for a hitter and his angle of approach (at top - its almost as if you are "on top" of this steep plane).

[spike]

I think you are on it. I think Mr. Kelley used the term "quick" in a definite context (I could be wrong).

Quick relative to the hitter's startdown and quick in terms of reaching top handspeed in less time than the hitter.

I'd still like to hear how people load it . . . I think picking up the loading is huge . . . but to me it is more of a subtle deal.

Thanks for that, 12 piece. As i understand it there are only 3 ways to load. Drive Loading, Drag Loading and Float Loading. Is that about right?

I use more of a Drag Loading style but the feeling in the downswing is very heavy, I think due to my using a sweep release. Does that make any sense? Is this where you are going with the topic?

[Mike O]

Please . . . . . who are you trying to kid?

Hey Stinkpot . . . instead of puttin' on your "flamesuit" why don't you answer my question? So it's a period of time and a neuroloogicizal dealie . . . but is it gentle, hard or fast ? (This should be good).

If you fed me more than once a day - and I had more than an hour outside everyday- then maybe I would respond!