Geometry of the circle and how it applies to shot shaping .

[BerntR]

Gentlemen,

It makes me sad to see these illustrations where the left shoulder is modeled as a swing center. What happened to the stationary head? Or do you advocate an arms only swing? - because that is the only way you can keep the head quiet and the left shoulder as the swing center. Or have you already forgotten about the "steady constant center" that OB introduced in his 3rd post in this thread and thus, allow the "center" to move around?

This illustration is so wrong in so many ways.

[O.B.Left]

Gentlemen,

It makes me sad to see these illustrations where the left shoulder is modeled as a swing center. What happened to the stationary head? Or do you advocate an arms only swing? - because that is the only way you can keep the head quiet and the left shoulder as the swing center. Or have you already forgotten about the "steady constant center" that OB introduced in his 3rd post in this thread and thus, allow the "center" to move around?

This illustration is so wrong in so many ways.

Ok , lets remove all but the head ..... we need to see the eyes as being above the inclined plane (from DTL) to understand the inherent illusions , what the correct path of the club should look like to the golfer. Thats all we need at present, to nail club path. What it looks like. So you can use the visual as a guide. Nail the actual path , then face and you can talk about ball reaction , shop shaping, divergence.

We can draw / model (moving) centres , levers etc if you want. Or try to anyways . Ive got some doodles I could share. Maybe others do to. The effects of delayed release of #2 on the Angle of Attack etc etc. What centres are being moved about at what point in the swing etc etc etc.

BTW I never intended the drawing to suggest that the left shoulder is the "swing centre". In real life. Most often it isnt ! It can be as you allude to, but isnt for full swings. For full shots the left shoulder is the center of the Arm Swing the head or more correctly a spot between the shoulders is the centre of the Pivot . They are both in play , their sequencing or non is a topic for discussion IMO. The Primary Lever is the Radius of the swing ... assuming your not Right Arm swinging.

I personally use a two bent arms, stiff wristed chipping method (Runyan , Seve style) that IMO is centred around the spot between the shoulders. Its a pure pivot stroke . One Accumulator. There's video of Seve online talking about the progression from chipping to pitching ...... "now we go to the straight left arm". To my mind that means he's introduced the left shoulder as centre of his straight left arm's motion. Nice way to work things. That guy dug it out of the sand. Also there are more centers than just the pivot and arm .... mulitple levers , multiple centres.

The 2D model is not intended to address the issues presented by the multiple levers of the human body. It merely shows the geometry of a circle . All models are somewhat flawed agreed . The machine of 1-L is subject to same. Centres can and do move in real life. With implications to low point , divot etc. etc etc.

[Daryl]

This first drawing is were D and I have a difference of opinion. The Angle of Approach should maybe be left for a later time eh D? Do you have the Angle of Attack handy? The attitude of the clubhead through the very minute but all important impact interval. It should be tangential to the orbit, no? Pointing more down as the ball goes back (up and in) the stance.

Wait, allow me a minute to understand your point so I can correct the drawing.

Are you suggesting that anywhere on the circle the ball is struck before Low Point, that the shaft needs to be at right angles to a line ............

I mean, we have added "Hook-face" to divert the ball from its true tangential path. Besides, anytime the primary lever is Turned, the shaft would not be at right angles ........

Help me out here. The bottom drawing shows that the clubshaft is not at right angles until Low Point because the Left Wrist is uncocking and the Primary Lever has not become Vertical.

The Top drawing represents a shaft-only orbiting around a circle and because its center of rotation is the center of the circle, the tangent will always be at right angles to it.

[HungryBear]

Wait, allow me a minute to understand your point so I can correct the drawing.

Are you suggesting that anywhere on the circle the ball is struck before Low Point, that the shaft needs to be at right angles to a line ............

I mean, we have added "Hook-face" to divert the ball from its true tangential path. Besides, anytime the primary lever is Turned, the shaft would not be at right angles ........

Help me out here. The bottom drawing shows that the clubshaft is not at right angles until Low Point because the Left Wrist is uncocking and the Primary Lever has not become Vertical.

The Top drawing represents a shaft-only orbiting around a circle and because its center of rotation is the center of the circle, the tangent will always be at right angles to it.

I do believe HK said the primary lever is never out of line. I see the Dual Centers of 2-D-0 makes the hinge as one of the centers . So the tangent at any point on the circle would be correct. ????

The second drawing would not occur fo simultaneous release and angled hinge. And it will not occur with my understand of sequential release, but that is another problem for later.??
HB

[O.B.Left]

Wait, allow me a minute to understand your point so I can correct the drawing.

Are you suggesting that anywhere on the circle the ball is struck before Low Point, that the shaft needs to be at right angles to a line ............

I mean, we have added "Hook-face" to divert the ball from its true tangential path. Besides, anytime the primary lever is Turned, the shaft would not be at right angles ........

Help me out here. The bottom drawing shows that the clubshaft is not at right angles until Low Point because the Left Wrist is uncocking and the Primary Lever has not become Vertical.

The Top drawing represents a shaft-only orbiting around a circle and because its center of rotation is the center of the circle, the tangent will always be at right angles to it.

Man you can draw dude and fast.


Lets consider the Arc of Attack (Homer style) , from the sixth.

GLOSSARY

PAGE 233

ARC OF ATTACK Example – Kingfisher’s attack.
Mechanical – The circumferences of a circle passing through any two points as viewed from an angle to the plane surface.
Golf – The curved visual path of the orbiting Clubhead visible on the face of the Inclined Plane, passing through Impact Point.

Would not the Angle of Attack be a straight line drawn between two points. Impact and separation Im thinking. Thats all the balls knows right. So ya tangential to the orbit but pointing down more for balls played back.

See drawing 2-C-1 #2B and note the perspective from which the Angle of Attack is drawn , is visible , measurable say from caddy view , "LOOKING TOWARDS THE PLAYER". Like looking at an airplanes angle of attack ... you dont see it from above the airplane, you see it from the side. Like measuring the pitch on a roof or the rise and run on a set of stairs. Looking from the side or in golf terms caddy view. Homer didnt talk in number of degrees or anything but angles do have degrees. Angle of Attack is measurable.


The Arc of Attack is a view of the clubhead (sweet pot) path from a certain perspective. The Angle of Attack is a measurement of the clubheads rate of decent. The club does not actually travel the straight line Angle of Attack. It stays on the circular orbit.

Angle of Attack , Arc of Attack y'all . D, you do you have that 2-C drawing?


OK now drawings will help us see this but jumping ahead for moment.....for those who might be getting bored. Other perspectives , the players own for instance , of the same clubhead / sweetpot path are labelled with different names. See drawing 2-C-1 #3 FROM THE PLAYERS PERSPECTIVE. Note how the Sweetspot Path is now called the Arc of Approach. Different labels for different perspectives of the very same sweetspot path through 3 dimensional space.

Arc of Approach y'all.

But i digress. Getting back to what the heck this might mean to the guy on the tee, did Homer say anything about Angle of Attack and backspin?

[Daryl]

Hungry Bear, I agree that the Primary Lever always maintains a radial alignment but when its not vertical, regardless of release, although the arm, if extended may always have a tangent line and be at right angles to the arm, the secondary lever will not. Not because its cocked, but because its not at right angles to the swing plane

does that make sense?

[Daryl]

[O.B.Left]

Awesome but we need 2-C-1 #2B. You got that one? And of special note 2-C-1 #3 is looking down from the players view . Not birds eye. There is a difference. Then we'd have caddy view and players view of the sweetspot path or clubhead path if you prefer.

The second drawing , is that yours?

Thanks D.

[Daryl]

[O.B.Left]

Thanks D can you turn 2-C-1 #3 upside down please and put it beside 2-C-1 B #2. Thats the pairing I find interesting for seeing the path.

Man your drawings are good. Ill come in with some doodles tomorrow to show things on the inclined plane from DTL.