Advanced quiz question for you all....

[golf2much]

The plane of the left wristcock motion (same as acc no.3 plane) per the flying wedges is a left arm plane. The sweetspot stays in this plane. The left arm nor the left flying wedge sits flat on the inclined plane. It comes from above the inclined plane.

When the hand is not turned towards the plane (which I thought would make the relationships pretty clear...) and is anywhere else - the LCOG will lay on the inclined plane on the angle that accumulator 3 plane makes as it passes through it. The wristcock no of degrees can then be determined by the angle between that line of intersection just described and the angle it makes with relation to Jens plane.

I get the "what your saying" part of it, but am still missing the "why it's important" part, unlelss the important part is to turn this into a mathematical relationship for a correct dynamic model. Otherwise, it seems like a pretty complicated way to measure wrist cock. In an ordinary golfer, why wouldn't you just measure the angle of the wrist cock by comparing the shaft angle to the left forearm?

G2M

[Bagger Lance]

When the hand is not turned towards the plane (which I thought would make the relationships pretty clear...) and is anywhere else - the LCOG will lay on the inclined plane on the angle that accumulator 3 plane makes as it passes through it. The wristcock no of degrees can then be determined by the angle between that line of intersection just described and the angle it makes with relation to Jens plane.

OK, I think we've made a mountain out of a mole hill and made it much more complicated than it is. If we are definng a way to measure the degree of wristcock based on a more defined identity for the left arm flying wedge, or more specifically, the left forearm plane (Jens Plane), then it's all good and I commend you Mathew for your work. It has been a very good thought exercise.

You can carry this logic into many more areas. For instance, the c-plane is a plane that helps measure axis tilt. The d-plane measures forward waist bend, the e-plane is right elbow bend...etc...

In my opinion, the real GSED challenge remains. How to use this additional knowledge in practical terms. I believe that is the heart and soul of The Golfing Machine.

Is there anything else we might be missing regarding the significance here?

Yoda - Is there still fog in the swamp? I'm just trying to avoid hatching one of these.



Thanks,

Bagger

[Mathew]

I get the "what your saying" part of it, but am still missing the "why it's important" part, unlelss the important part is to turn this into a mathematical relationship for a correct dynamic model. Otherwise, it seems like a pretty complicated way to measure wrist cock. In an ordinary golfer, why wouldn't you just measure the angle of the wrist cock by comparing the shaft angle to the left forearm?

G2M

These things are important - not just for a correct model but to overall increase the understanding of alignments. Only with this highly detailed level of knowledge will you truely understand the golf stroke.

For example now you can say with full knowledge why it is wrong to take a 2d picture from a front on view and then draw lines directly across the left arm to the left hand to the sweetspot and measure the angle.

---------------------
But since we're on the subject of the mathematics, to do this you need yet another plane.

You need to reference the angle of the left arm relative to the inclined plane. If we reference this plane from the inclined plane itself and not the ground like we do for hinge action, it will be directly vertical to the inclined plane through the angle of the left arm. We can then work out the angle that the left arm is above the inclined plane. This can be the same as the angled hinge action (although unrelated) if you are talking about the angled plane that goes through the inclined plane vertically and not one of its other infinite possibilities. This plane will be the same as Jens plane when accumulator 3 has turned directly towards the inclined plane.

So basically

Key

x = no of degrees of accumulator no.3 has turned or rolled relative from the plane just described

y = no of degrees of accumulator no.2 relative to Jens plane and accumulator no.3 plane

z = the left arm angle above (+ degrees) or below (- degrees) relative to the inclined plane and using the plane just described as reference.

so x=y-((x divided by 90) times z)

Edit I forgot to put in the division part....

[Mathew]

OK, I think we've made a mountain out of a mole hill and made it much more complicated than it is. If we are definng a way to measure the degree of wristcock based on a more defined identity for the left arm flying wedge, or more specifically, the left forearm plane (Jens Plane), then it's all good and I commend you Mathew for your work. It has been a very good thought exercise.

Bagger

This isn't just a way of measuring wristcock - this ties in many different variables as my mathematical equation just shows.

[EdZ]

This isn't just a way of measuring wristcock - this ties in many different variables as my mathematical equation just shows.

Perhaps you have lost me, but to clarify, "Jen's" plane is simply the angle of the left wedge/wristcock relative to 'the' plane?

So taking this a step farther, you can define the ideal angles of the two wedges to Jen's plane by combination of the angles at which the wedges intersect 'the' plane, assuming a 90 degree relationship between the wedges.

Depending on lie angle/length of club/golfer, one would assume that this would ideally be 45 degrees in a motion using the turned shoulder plane, such that the path/plane of the pressure points would be rather verticle to the ground, while still accounting for the #3 accumulator angle and lie of the club and an efficient combination of force vectors.

[neil]

Neil,
That's how I see it. Matthew's still has lost me - but with a little work I think we'll get there.

Thanks Mike-My brain was exploding!-now can you deal with bucket?

[golf2much]

"if you are talking about the angled plane that goes through the inclined plane vertically and not one of its other infinite possibilities. This plane will be the same as Jens plane when accumulator 3 has turned directly towards the inclined plane."

Matthew;

Never was I debating the importance of these details. I'm an engineer, and spend my career simplifying complex intangible things for non engineers. I understand what you have said in the above portion of your post, but if the "new" plane you mention is the same as Jens plane under certain conditions, then isn't it really just Jen's plane in a different position? Jen's plane as I see it is comparable to the degree of rotation of the left wrist hinge pin rotating from vertical at the top to parallel at impact and then to vertical below (or approximately so) at finish, much like your book cover example previously.

BTW, your graphics are excellent, and have been my key to understanding many of the more complex relationships. I can almost see them in my m inds eye, but your graphics generally cement them. Thanks for the great work.

G2M

[Mike O]

Golf2much,
would it be possible for you to summarize and explain this thread? Or Matthew? Or is this some sick Bucket trick so that I'll cut my own head off! I guess I could review all of the posts in this thread- study them - review them- and then try to understand what is parallel to what, etc. but I'm a little worn out.
Thanks

[Mike O]

Thanks Mike-My brain was exploding!-now can you deal with bucket?

Neil,
Some things are just too far out there to deal with- too dangerous! You were brave to post this on the forum- I've had thousands of personal PM's on this exact issue- give me time Neil, give me time! Can't rush these things.

I would just like to say to Bucket.....we'll sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words... I'm coming for that chicken head!

[golf2much]

Golf2much,
would it be possible for you to summarize and explain this thread? Or Matthew? Or is this some sick Bucket trick so that I'll cut my own head off! I guess I could review all of the posts in this thread- study them - review them- and then try to understand what is parallel to what, etc. but I'm a little worn out.
Thanks

I'll give it more of a go in the AM. This thread required some serious thinking on my part, and I'm still not sure I get Mathew's full intent yet.

For the first part though, think about a swing fan(one of those training devices) Swing it like a golf club with two blades aligned to your inclined left arm plane. The blades that are 90* to this inclined plane represent Jen's plane and are aligned along, but vertical to the plane of your left arm. As the fan is swung, imagine what happens to the Jen's plane blades; they close to the inclined plane like the book example as you approach impact, and as you approach finish, the lower extension of Jen's plane (the bottom, initially vertical blade) passes through the inclined plane and approaches vertical to it. In short, starts vertical, goes to and past parallel, and to the opposite vertical.

The wrist cock part and it's real world application, I'm still struggling with.

Sleep well
G2M