Advanced quiz question for you all....

[Mathew]

Ok so what were have found out here is what accumulator 3 is from the vertical relationship that the left arm has with the inclined plane.

So how do we do that....

We firstly need to know where the left arm is on its circle relative to the plane that is vertical to the inclined plane (think angled hinging). We do this by referencing the vertical relationship with the ground and how many degrees has it moved around relative to that.

Now we need to find out exactly how to calculate the hinge action plane relative to that point - and it best to look at the 90 degree perspective here. The angle of the hinge action in relation to the ground and the angle of the inclined plane relative into the ground also plays a role here.

For example

Lets just look at an example with the inclined plane at 30 degrees and the left arm 90 degrees from low point relative to inclined plane

Hinge action----------Left arm Low Point-----Left Arm 90 degrees

Horizontal(0 degrees)---------0---------------------30
Vertical(90 degrees)----------0---------------------60
Angled (30 degrees)-----0----------------------0

Ok so you can see why the horizontal plane at 90 degrees is exactly the same as the inclined plane with the ground and the vertical plane is - 90 of that figure...

See if that clears much up...

[Mike O]

The plane Mathew defined as Jen's plane starts out at the top as vertical/perpendicular to the swing plane. As the left arm moves down towards impact, Jen's plane rotates to a point near impact that is parallel to the SP. Picture the book again; if the spine is aligned with the left arm plane and one cover is aligned with the swing plane, place the other cover at 90* to the swing plane. Now mimic the movement of your left arm and wrist as you approach impact and allow the upward pointing book cover to rotate as though the book is closing. The closing cover will move to and through a position where the once upward point book cover is now parallel to the SP. I'm still working on the relationship with the #3acc/wrist cock. Still some fog there for me too. Maybe once the graphic is finished it will be clear to me. I have some thoughts on this but I'm still thinking.

G2M

Since you previously made the distinction between "plane edge" and "plane surface"- would you re-read your post and make sure that it makes sense in that context or if you used plane when meaning plane edge. I'm so foggy that I'm not asking that because I see an error- I'm just asking it before I start to try to figure it out, I want to make sure that I'm imagining the correct picture for the correct word being used.

Also, can you define Jen's plane- that is give a definition.

Thanks,
Ya it's me

[golf2much]

Since you previously made the distinction between "plane edge" and "plane surface"- would you re-read your post and make sure that it makes sense in that context or if you used plane when meaning plane edge. I'm so foggy that I'm not asking that because I see an error- I'm just asking it before I start to try to figure it out, I want to make sure that I'm imagining the correct picture for the correct word being used.

Also, can you define Jen's plane- that is give a definition.

Thanks,
Ya it's me

No problem Mike: In the answer above, the way I see it, I used plane to mean plane surface. The confusing part is that even as the plane surface rotates (think forearm rotation), and the plane surface approaches parallel to the inclined plane surface the edge also stays parallel at all points. There is little significance in the fact that the edges stay parallel at this point in Mathew's exercise, but I think he has yet grander plans for us. The fact that the edges stay parallel means that you can utilize this plane as a reference plane, a place to compare other variables, not directly related. Like wrist cock, and forearm rotation. ( fog slightly thinner now, sir)

As to a definition; Mathew's definition as I understand it is that jen's plane is simply the plane in which the left wrist hinge pin lies. Directionally, this plane is oriented along the approximate centerline of the left forearm. Functionally, it is a measure of the degree of rotation of the left forearm relative to whatever plane you choose (IP, Ground or vertical thereto)

Hope this helps, it helped me just by writing it.
G2M

[Mathew]

Well lets see all this stuff in action...

Ok lets say the left arm is 30 degrees from low point - we are using Horizontal Hinge action, and the plane angle is 30 degrees

ok so then we can input this into our equation

30 divided by 90 is 0.3333... or 1/3 of 30 so that is 10 degrees accumulator 3 has turned from vertically going through the inclined plane.

Now lets find out the amount of wristcock for the 10 degrees accumulator no.3 and lets just say the left arm is 5 degrees above plane

so pluging this into the first equation

10=y-((10/90)times 5))
10=y-0.555555...
lets rearrange this a little
y=10+0.555555...

So the wristcock is 10.55555...

Magical huh

[Martee]

Well here goes, I am about to show my ignorance and stupidity. I have all these posted printed out and lines and numbers on them and I JUST DON'T GET IT.

Jen's Plane? Can you really define a 'set' plane that exists through out the stroke or is that at some instance in time?

Hinge Action, Left Arm Angle? Can you really identify the hinge action being applied prior to the impact interval?

These alignments being discussed are the same for a hitting or swinging motion?

There are more questions that I have cause FRANKLY even with the graphics, nothing is computing.

For example, I thought I understood ACC#3, however defining a plane for itself has left me to wonder what I understand and why the alignment to this plane has any importnance or meaning?

CAN SOMEONE provide a bullet summary of what this is really all about?

[Mike O]

No problem Mike: In the answer above, the way I see it, I used plane to mean plane surface. The confusing part is that even as the plane surface rotates (think forearm rotation), and the plane surface approaches parallel to the inclined plane surface the edge also stays parallel at all points. There is little significance in the fact that the edges stay parallel at this point in Mathew's exercise, but I think he has yet grander plans for us. The fact that the edges stay parallel means that you can utilize this plane as a reference plane, a place to compare other variables, not directly related. Like wrist cock, and forearm rotation. ( fog slightly thinner now, sir)

As to a definition; Mathew's definition as I understand it is that jen's plane is simply the plane in which the left wrist hinge pin lies. Directionally, this plane is oriented along the approximate centerline of the left forearm. Functionally, it is a measure of the degree of rotation of the left forearm relative to whatever plane you choose (IP, Ground or vertical thereto)

Hope this helps, it helped me just by writing it.
G2M

OK- I feel as if I can get somewhere with your explanations.

So Jen's plane is 90 degrees to the plane of the flat left wrist- the "plane of the left wrist hinge PIN. So at low point assuming the back of the flat left wrist is facing the target- then any MOTION of the cocking left wrist would be straight up and down and the actual hinge PIN would be parallel to the swingplane.

Have I understood you correctly on this particular point.

Thanks for the help.

[golf2much]

OK- I feel as if I can get somewhere with your explanations.

So Jen's plane is 90 degrees to the plane of the flat left wrist- the "plane of the left wrist hinge PIN. So at low point assuming the back of the flat left wrist is facing the target- then any MOTION of the cocking left wrist would be straight up and down and the actual hinge PIN would be parallel to the swingplane.

Have I understood you correctly on this particular point.

Thanks for the help.

Yes, exactly as I understand it.

G2M

[Mike O]

Yes, exactly as I understand it.

G2M

Very good- I understand one item- and thanks for the quick reply. Now, I'll go back and use that one piece of information and see if it makes sense in relation to the previous posts and see what else if anything that I don't understand or what information does not mesh with that explanation.

Thanks,
Mike O

[golf2much]

Well lets see all this stuff in action...

Ok lets say the left arm is 30 degrees from low point - we are using Horizontal Hinge action, and the plane angle is 30 degrees

ok so then we can input this into our equation

30 divided by 90 is 0.3333... or 1/3 of 30 so that is 10 degrees accumulator 3 has turned from vertically going through the inclined plane.

Now lets find out the amount of wristcock for the 10 degrees accumulator no.3 and lets just say the left arm is 5 degrees above plane

so pluging this into the first equation

10=y-((10/90)times 5))
10=y-0.555555...
lets rearrange this a little
y=10+0.555555...

So the wristcock is 10.55555...

Magical huh

I thought the point of the exercise was to be able to calculate the wrist cock position, or maybe to measure the release. If you have to assume that the left are is "say 5* below plane" to calculate the wristcock, what is the point. I appreciate the mathematics, and I'm sure the math is right, but for this approach to have value, you should be able to calculate the degree of below plane of the laft arm, and in turn the wristcock. I think I can picture how you would do this, but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Also, as a "real world" issue, what do you think is the significance of being able to calculate the exact degree of wrist cock, or is this just a test question in the making? Another real world issue, is that you would have to put a golfer in a pretty precise and golfer to golfer consistent photo set up to be able to even analyze these issues with any reliability. And finally, other than helping us understand the relationships between the components how would you impart this knowledge as an instructor?

G2M

[golf2much]

Well here goes, I am about to show my ignorance and stupidity. I have all these posted printed out and lines and numbers on them and I JUST DON'T GET IT.

Jen's Plane? Can you really define a 'set' plane that exists through out the stroke or is that at some instance in time?

Yes, the plane exists throughout the stroke, it is just in different positions. The change in plane position represents the degree of forearm rotation

Hinge Action, Left Arm Angle? Can you really identify the hinge action being applied prior to the impact interval?
good question, Mathew?

These alignments being discussed are the same for a hitting or swinging motion?
I think the plane designation applies regardless of the motion of choice. The movement of the plane would be different depending on the motion of choice

There are more questions that I have cause FRANKLY even with the graphics, nothing is computing.

For example, I thought I understood ACC#3, however defining a plane for itself has left me to wonder what I understand and why the alignment to this plane has any importnance or meaning?

See the previous post in the thread

CAN SOMEONE provide a bullet summary of what this is really all about?

One Bullet summary: Jen's plane and it's change in orientation and interaction with other planes can be used to calculate or measure in particular the degree of rotation of the left forearm, and potentially the degree of wrist cock/release. See the previous post in the thread

G2M