Just plane confused!

[Mike O]

Matthew,
Below are the only two items in your post that I wanted to clarify.

Do you mean how do you precisely locate it - you can't really... just engineer impact and keep the force going downplane into the followthrough....low point will take care of itself.

Does that mean that we're into a "theoretical" discussion that is not so much practically relevant? Of course, it would depend on the speed that the shoulder center was moving up etc. but I'm guessing that you're seeing this concept of the left shoulder center moving up and therefore realizing that the low point might be nanoseconds before the lever reaches the direct vertical below the left shoulder? Do I have that correct?

Buy a webcam and mic, create a youtube account and just capture your video straight to youtube.
Thanks- I'm familiar with the webcam concept- but your advice seems right to the point and easily understandable

I thought what I was saying was extremely clear....lol
No, No, For me you have real issues there - in the written format! I only say that as feedback for you to consider. Now, on the video you were as clear as day to me.

Let me know about the first question here and then I'll be back

[Mathew]

Video Responce to Mike O

[12 piece bucket]

Video Responce to Mike O

Makes perfect sense to me . . . I just want to clarify . . . my initial question was infact directed to Mikey. I'm not sure that I needed "correction" I was just asking Mikey some stupid questions to see if I could make him have a nutball fit. It worked with all that "you got a 7 and and you turn it into an airplane and fly it across the world . . . "

But I'll stand corrected if need be.

[Mike O]

Matthew,
I had to revise this post and it wouldn't take the "save" - so I've deleted it and you can find my post below.

[Mike O]

Matthew, (I've revised this one- made a few changes for clarification)
Now that I understand your perspective- I can see why you say low point of the overall orbit would/could be before the point that the clubhead passes the "in-line" location of the lead shoulder. So before I break it out a little further - and maybe take away a little of your original post- Let me say that you are correct and that I think it is an excellent understanding of what is happening in the full swing. Nice job!

Let's see how much of this post- that we can agree on- I'm hoping quite a bit if I understand the concept as you.

First I'd like to correct an error in my thinking in regards to my
"7" "simple machine" example. My "7" example was a one center rotation machine. It only rotated about the "neck" of the golfer and therefore I only had a center of rotation at the top left of the 7. All of that wasn't a problem as I was just trying isolate the low point concept with something that A) resembled the shoulder line and the primary lever line, and B) wasn't just a straight up and down pendulum. The error that I made was thinking that 7 would have a low point opposite the top right of the 7 whenever the bottom of the 7 passed beneath it. In fact, the low point for any single fixed center of rotation is directly beneath it- regardless of the fixed shape of the attachment. So that just gets me corrected- not saying you even commented on my machine or even considered it in your explanation.

Let me repeat that in a system where there is just one center- the low point of the fixed length rotating body will always be underneath the center of the rotation. As you pointed out- if the left shoulder doesn't move and the primary lever system would rotate around it - low point would be opposite the left shoulder. Likewise, for single center rotating machines- say in golf if the primary lever system was fixed and did not rotate around the left shoulder- then if you just rotate around the "neck" i.e. the pivot- the low point would be opposite the neck i.e. say a shot chip shot or something- or a putting stroke. Using this principle- In general, I'd say that if you set-up to any full golf shot- with the ball located perpendicular to the inside of your lead foot (Golfing Machine you'd relate it to "lowpoint" i.e. upperbody - so just ahead of your lead "nipple" (that's for you Bucket) - then you couldn't have a "one piece takeaway" since lowpoint would be opposite the neck/belly button- you'd need to have the clubhead dig a trough into the ground!

Matthew- As opposed to my simple machine - your machine has two centers of rotation. One lever pivoting around the "neck" and one lever pivoting around the "left shoulder". So while we consider the first center of rotation fixed in space- the "neck", the second center - the left shoulder- is moving in space- it is orbiting the fixed center "the neck"- and while that center is orbiting the neck it has a lever rotating around it- the primary lever assembly.

Again, not to take away anything from your post but to just look at this concept of dual rotating centers/levers where one center is rotating on the orbit of another -on paper- here is how I follow the logic. First, the two centers of rotation combine to form a "clubhead" orbit- that neither center could create on it's own. It's that orbit of the clubhead and that orbits lowpoint that we are comparing to the axis of rotation of the 2nd (moving center) (the left shoulder in our golf example).

The fact that the center of the axis of rotation (the 2nd center) that is moving around the fixed center is moving up- doesn't mean in all situations that low point of the overall orbit will be behind the axis of rotation of the moving center. In your example I believe you said at one point in the video "when the up overcomes the down" which maybe is your way of describing what I'm going to cover below. In principle, I see it as if the up of the end of the 1st lever (left shoulder in your example) rises more than the down ward motion of the end of the 2nd lever-(the clubhead in your example)- then you'd have that condition where the overall lowpoint would be behind the lowpoint of just the 2nd lever.

To show the logic behind dual centers of rotation when one is fixed and the other center is rotating around it- let's consider the hands as rotating in the golf swing on a fixed center point (say the head/neck) moving in a perfect circle (not saying they do) and the clubshaft rotates around the hands- so the hands are the 2nd center and that center is moving while the clubshaft is also moving around the hands center (say during the release in the downswing). If the shaft moves around the hands at a high rate of degrees per second while the hands are moving at a slow rate around their fixed center (say the head) - then the low point of the clubhead on the overall orbit might be descending after the point that the clubhead passes the 2nd center of rotation. So even though the clubhead has passed the hands - you could be still having the clubhead descending. That's just an example showing a "combined center lowpoint" that is after the point that the clubhead passes under the moving center of rotation i.e. the opposite of your example.

In summary, it's not so much if the 2nd center is rising that completely determines if the low point of the orbit created by the dual centers is before the center of rotation of the 2nd center (left shoulder in your example) but it's the correlation between the angular speed of the first center in relation to the 2nd centers angular speed - combined with where the individual levers are in their rotations.

Here are two points in case I've said something that's going to make your start firing bullets:
1) I'm not expecting but hoping that if we are on the same line of thinking that you'll follow my logic. Again, if you were strictly referring to the full golf swing then all you might have needed to cover is exactly what you did cover- however, my mind was looking at the principle involved and having a tough time accepting it (if the shoulder was moving up then the low point would be before the left shoulder)- based on what I described above.
2) I may indeed not have this correct or there may be additional issue of relationships of radius size, speed of rotations etc. but I look forward to your thoughts. And I'm not saying you didn't know any of this or that I'm disagreeing - I'm just putting my thoughts down on the possibilities and seeing if you agree or disagree.
Thanks,
Mike

[Jeff]

In this model of a golfer, surely there are three axis points - i) the shoulders are rotating around the spine fulcrum point; ii) the left arm is rotating around the left shoulder socket fulcrum point; and iii) the clubshaft is rotating around the left hand/wrist fulcrum point.

As Matthew has correctly stated, the left shoulder point fulcrum point is moving upwards in the peri-impact zone and this moves the left hand/wrist fulcrum point upwards to an equal degree. While this is happening, the clubshaft is descending to the low point of its arc (relative to the left wrist/hand fulcrum point) and the low point depends on where the clubhead is in space at the time point of impact and the time point of the deepest divot depth (low point of the entire system). However, there is a third compounding factor - the movement of the spine fulcrum point upwards and rightwards as the golfer stands-up through impact. Surely, that must affect the low point of the entire three fulcrum point system because movement of the spine affects the position of the left shoulder?

Jeff.

[EdZ]

Video Responce to Mike O

Mathew, nobody could ever accuse you of lacking passion, to be sure!

[Mike O]

In this model of a golfer, surely there are three axis points - i) the shoulders are rotating around the spine fulcrum point; ii) the left arm is rotating around the left shoulder socket fulcrum point; and iii) the clubshaft is rotating around the left hand/wrist fulcrum point.

As Matthew has correctly stated, the left shoulder point fulcrum point is moving upwards in the peri-impact zone and this moves the left hand/wrist fulcrum point upwards to an equal degree. While this is happening, the clubshaft is descending to the low point of its arc (relative to the left wrist/hand fulcrum point) and the low point depends on where the clubhead is in space at the time point of impact and the time point of the deepest divot depth (low point of the entire system). However, there is a third compounding factor - the movement of the spine fulcrum point upwards and rightwards as the golfer stands-up through impact. Surely, that must affect the low point of the entire three fulcrum point system because movement of the spine affects the position of the left shoulder?

Jeff.

Jeff,
Feel free to post but I'm waiting for Matthew to respond to my post and closing out our conversation. Surely, there are many other centers - and they may or may not affect the overall lowpoint of the system but I believe for now that Mathew and I are limiting the discussion to a "two center system" in order to understand the principle at hand.
Thanks

[Jeff]

Mike - my question is not intended to intrude in your discussion with Matthew regarding a "two center system". I am just trying to understand all the factors that could affect the position of the low point. Hopefully, Matthew can address the question whether other factors significantly affect the position of the low point. One factor would be the degree of "standing up" at impact and also the degree of secondary axis tilt. Another potential factor would be the degree of left-lateral hip slide that occurs during the downswing. I noted that the outer border of Ben Hogan's left pelvis is well within the outer border of his left foot at impact when hitting a driver, while other golfers have the outer border of their left pelvis slightly outside the outer border of the left foot at impact. It would seem to me that variations in the position of the pelvis at impact (degree of left-lateral slide and/or degree of hip openess at impact) must affect the position of the lumbar spine, and therefore the upper spine, and subsequently the left shoulder socket at the time-point when the clubhead reaches its low point.

Jeff.

[Mike O]

Mike - my question is not intended to intrude in your discussion with Matthew regarding a "two center system". I am just trying to understand all the factors that could affect the position of the low point. Hopefully, Matthew can address the question whether other factors significantly affect the position of the low point. One factor would be the degree of "standing up" at impact and also the degree of secondary axis tilt. Another potential factor would be the degree of left-lateral hip slide that occurs during the downswing. I noted that the outer border of Ben Hogan's left pelvis is well within the outer border of his left foot at impact when hitting a driver, while other golfers have the outer border of their left pelvis slightly outside the outer border of the left foot at impact. It would seem to me that variations in the position of the pelvis at impact (degree of left-lateral slide and/or degree of hip openess at impact) must affect the position of the lumbar spine, and therefore the upper spine, and subsequently the left shoulder socket at the time-point when the clubhead reaches its low point.

Jeff.

Agreed.........