thoughts....decided on a pattern

[whip]

The reason why pros look effortless is because the swinging action is completely passive with longitudinalacceleration, once you start down u must only clear the hip cf will align the face auimatically producing the dual horizontal hinge what you and hb are describing is manipulated hands swinging with non automatic release of course for swinging to work the ball must've positioned accordingly so that the cog of the clubace aligns at low point the ball must be played precisely at the right ball location factoring in the closing only of the horizontal hinge the face must be open at address to allow for closing this is why homer preferred hitting and manipulated hands swinging ball position matters less and the hassle can control it from start to finish the pivotand balance with lag and axis tilt is what allows an effortless true swinging action which is what allows a small person to drive par fours,effortless passive speed

[O.B.Left]

For me CF , Horizontal , #3pp are tools I use ... I do admit that I am surprised to consider that Horizontal is manipulated , measured as it seems so natural. But even if it is so, it doesn't change what I do procedurally. Horizontal is compression and an ideal. However it is achieved.

There are a lot of guys out there looking at face angles and thinking that most of the pros are flippers etc .... "They don't hit em like they used to". Now that is crazy! Far crazier than what HB is proposing. Most every guy on tour is a flipper? Uh huh. These theorists don't know what Horizontal with a strongish left hand grip should look like in Finish Swivel. The face should look down ish. Hands to Plane. The face angle as set in the hands makes it so when the hands are rolled to plane.

Give me the "rolling wedges" ( I like that one HB) and inside out impact and Im good. Give me the opposite to Steering in all its forms. Well unless I need Steering for an intentional loss of compression.

[BerntR]

The reason why pros look effortless is because the swinging action is completely passive with longitudinalacceleration, once you start down u must only clear the hip cf will align the face auimatically producing the dual horizontal hinge what you and hb are describing is manipulated hands swinging with non automatic release of course for swinging to work the ball must've positioned accordingly so that the cog of the clubace aligns at low point the ball must be played precisely at the right ball location factoring in the closing only of the horizontal hinge the face must be open at address to allow for closing this is why homer preferred hitting and manipulated hands swinging ball position matters less and the hassle can control it from start to finish the pivotand balance with lag and axis tilt is what allows an effortless true swinging action which is what allows a small person to drive par fours,effortless passive speed

While I can't speak for HB, this is a misrepresentation of my position.

Words like "completely passive" "manupulation (free)" are very vague when we try to sort out what squares the club face.

Even a "manipulation" free swing will show a distinct rotation of the RFFW and LAFW towards and through impact. And with your late snap release, the face stays open , looking out of the swing plane, for as long as possible - and the rotation will happen as late as possible, and also as fast as "possible". When the RFFW rotates back on plane, the club face will rotate from facing out of the swing plane to facing down the swing path.

The Nesbit paper shows negative gamma torque prior to impact. Negative means anti clock wise, which is a closing torque. What CF does or doesn't makes no difference to the club face alignment whatsoever. It feels manipulation free because the force required to close the club face is negligible compared to the forced used to create swing speed.

[whip]

Bernt r I am only usig terms from te book manipulated is not my word hr actually refers to it as manipulated handswinging which is not a bad thing it's just not true swinging I could care less about the Nesbit paper I don't disagree that the wedges roll that means nothing about whether it was passive or not

[HungryBear]

For me CF , Horizontal , #3pp are tools I use ... I do admit that I am surprised to consider that Horizontal is manipulated , measured as it seems so natural. But even if it is so, it doesn't change what I do procedurally. Horizontal is compression and an ideal. However it is achieved.

There are a lot of guys out there looking at face angles and thinking that most of the pros are flippers etc .... "They don't hit em like they used to". Now that is crazy! Far crazier than what HB is proposing. Most every guy on tour is a flipper? Uh huh. These theorists don't know what Horizontal with a strongish left hand grip should look like in Finish Swivel. The face should look down ish. Hands to Plane. The face angle as set in the hands makes it so when the hands are rolled to plane.

Give me the "rolling wedges" ( I like that one HB) and inside out impact and Im good. Give me the opposite to Steering in all its forms. Well unless I need Steering for an intentional loss of compression.

I do try to stay within the bounds of HK's great work-I think my only most visible contridiction is on the "cone" thing- but that is not important.
HK had a great and developing understanding of the ALIGNMENTS and geometry of what "works" in a human golf swing. It is presented in HIS work - G.O.L.F - TGM - The Golfing Machine. That is the thrust of his work.
HK also developed a good outline of ways to POWER the Machine.
Primary is the alignments, them come a way to power the machine, without "breaking" the machine.
This thread may be built on misunderstanding.
Part of the machine is a "flat left hand"- clubface control - HK could not have been more emphatic.
HK was also clear that a swinger POWERS his machine with cf. Didn't HK say that the only thing a swinger has going fo himself isw THE Ability to MANIPULATE CF? That is not a negative but a good thing.
The swinger uses cf to extend the lever assembly. BUT the club face alignment remain with the Flat Left Hand.
This is the importance of this thread which is being missed.
Golf is an athletic endevor with the hands as "primary" command post as with most all athletic endevors. Find what athletic skills you have in support of your hqand and golf becomes "almost" a practical game.

HP

[BerntR]

I don't disagree that the wedges roll that means nothing about whether it was passive or not

That's where a tiny doze of Newton comes in handy. It can't be passive.

[whip]

Y not? What part of centrifugal force pulls objects in line and on plane with their cog doesn't make sense?

[BerntR]

First of all, whip, there are two meanings of CF.

1) A fictitious force that seems to pull the club head away from the golfer in a rotary system of reference.

2) A real force that works from the club back on the golfer, pulling the golfers hands out - and working towards stretching everything between the sweet spot and the swing center.

I don't have the book in front of me, but as far as I can remember, HK's definition a little bit of both. Club head inertia resisting the golfer's effort to keep the club head in orbit. Or something like that. This could be interpreted as a force that works the club head (fictitious) or a force that works the golfer (real)

The mechanism underlying both those forces is club head inertia, as per Newton's 1st law. Any moving or not moving mass will resist any change of speed or direction. The law applies to every molecule in the golf club. That's all the golf club does. It resists any acceleration.

If the club head is rotating towards a closed face already it will continue to rotate at a constant speed. But an external force has to initiate the rotation. The short and long of it is that the golfer has to create the rotation. There is no magic in CF and there is no magic in Newton's laws.

In a swing, with proper power package alignment, the golfer will close the club face by simply continuing the motion through impact. No manipulation. No deliberate club face closing effort. But it doesn't mean that the club closes by itself. It only seems that way.

[whip]

We r essentially agreeing as far as te second point but cf pulling the object towards it's cog is what close the clubface making swinging truly effortless

[whip]

I'll trust in 40 years of research...