thoughts....decided on a pattern

[O.B.Left]

The left arm is basically irrelevant for the hitter it's how lee Westwood gets away with a bent left arm and wrist at impact the hit has no center

The left arm may be less relevant to Westwood but its not to Hitters general as you imply. In fact Id say that learning the feel associated with thrusting the entire Primary Lever (left arm and club) at the #1 pp by the right arm , was for me the biggest step forward when I learned to Hit. As taught to me by Yoda and Ted Fort.

Joe , or his line of thinking , puts some serious constraints on Hitting, doesn't it? A disservice to Hitting and those who would learn how to do it. Constraints that preclude a lot of the 1-L's . With all due respect , I don't think the notion that "Hitting is defined by a truly straight line club head path" is correct. It would mandate a club head only plane as opposed to a shaft plane . If this were so , Homer would have specified that the 1 L's in question were for Swingers only. Gosh the machine he drew would be Swingers machine only!

In chapter 2, Homer's drawing of the straight line Angle of Approach would not need to have been drawn "from the players perspective". As was the case. Take a look at the fine print beside the drawing. You will note that it does not read "plan view" ! In fact Homer never draws the straight line angle of approach from any other perspective than the players ! Why? Because it isn't truly a straight line! It only appears to be straight from that one view point.

I know there are drawings out there showing a straight line angle of approach from other points of view. But IMO they are not correct. Drawings by people we know , respect and in some cases love but they were not drawn by Homer's hand. Im out on a very long limb here I know.

If Im wrong then please tell me so ..... I am here to learn to compress my balls better not bust anybody else's. Whip, you're young , a great player, a GSEB , a teacher with a passion for the game , a swinger..............its in your best interest to know hitting in all its forms. I suspect that despite what Joe said , you actually were Hitting! You didn't need to kill that procedure.

Respectfully.
ob

[MizunoJoe]

The left arm is basically irrelevant for the hitter ... the hit has no center

The only real difference between Hitter and Swinger is the physics behind the geometry - spin the flywheel or fire the right triceps. The club head always moves in an arc from any perspective, other than when the eye lies in the plane of the orbiting club head. The left shoulder is the center and the left arm has extensor action applied to it, in a proper TGM stroke, Hit or Swing. A GSEB should know this.

[whip]

Obviously u can use either or but they should not be paired horizontal hinging and standard wrist action do not go with hitting neither does the arc of approach. Swinger there is a centered motion throw out action from it's center, the hitter is an uncentered straight line thrust the structure of extensor helps both hitting and swinging but the left arm is less important in the uncentered hitters motion I'm not making this stuff up. This seems like another one of those cases where u think homers ideas were just theory or practically a myth. There is an angle of approach folks and the hitter uses it it is not a curved blur it is a straight line off plane in the follow through straight line no curve not making this stuff up folks

ob the player's perspective of the visual equivalent is just that exclusively a VISUAL equivalent

[O.B.Left]

The only real difference between Hitter and Swinger is the physics behind the geometry - spin the flywheel or fire the right triceps. The club head always moves in an arc from any perspective, other than when the eye lies in the plane of the orbiting club head. The left shoulder is the center and the left arm has extensor action applied to it, in a proper TGM stroke, Hit or Swing. A GSEB should know this.

Ok know what you mean but id say thats true only when looking at the guys who swing and hit in a very similar fashion, drag loading hitting specifically , arc of approach procedure. Like me for instance. But the Angle of Approach procedure if its employed (and its typically a hitter who would use it) , would have a very different geometry . Through impact and else where. The Plane Angle is higher , Delivery Line is out to the right , Angled Hinging vs Horizontal typically , steeper angle of attack given how steep the plane angle is etc etc etc .

[MizunoJoe]

The hitter using the angle of approach does not see an arc.

Only if his eye is in the plane of the orbiting club head.

[MizunoJoe]

This is a classic example of misrepresenting what I said and using it against me, the angle of approach is not seen from face on DUH I never said anything about face on or from top to impact u pulled it out of your ass to make me look bad and you insult my knowledge as an authorized instructor get a freekin life or work on your game spare us your worthless posts get off my thread you contribute nothing

That statement was merely pointing out the club head moves in a curved path(close to circular) throughout and so also shortly before, at, and after impact - the blur from any perspective, except if the eye is in the plane of the curved orbit.

[MizunoJoe]

Ok know what you mean when looking at the guys who swing and hit in a very similar fashion. Me for instance. But the Angle of Approach procedure if its employed (and its typically a hitter who would use it) , would have a very different geometry . Through impact and else where. The Plane Angle is higher , Delivery Line is out to the right , Angled Hinging vs Horizontal typically , steeper angle of attack given how steep the plane angle is etc etc etc .

Yes, the plane line is shifted to the right so that you have an in-to-out club head path, rather than just an in-to-out impact. But, if the club head blur appears perfectly straight, then the dominant eye lies in that steeper plane of the club head. However, off that plane, there is a curve to it. The point I'm making is that you can also do the same plane shift with a Swinging motion and the same release point, which would give a blur which appears identical to the player. Moreover, even the most discerning spectator might not be able to tell you which was a Hit and which was a Swing.

[O.B.Left]

The point I'm making is that you can also do the same plane shift with a Swinging motion and the same release point, which would give a blur which appears identical to the player.

By plane shift do you mean a shift up to a club head only eye plane or out to the right 10-5-E . I assume you mean the former... Sorry don't follow. If its the latter and your swinging its just a closed plane line.. Inside out stroke. Draw shot procedure typically with a curved blur.

The true geometric Angle OF Approach Procedure where the club head is seen to travel a straight line delivery line is very un swingerish. Full on manipulation , non shaft planar ..... not a rock on a string deal more of a right arm and club shaft describing a cone shape .... Its a bit of a weird duck.

And this is where my thinking runs into some trouble because Homer in conversation with Yoda said Arnie was a hitter who used the Angle of Approach . But when I imagine what Arnies blur might have looked like to his eye , I think it must have been a curve given his plane angle. Something Yoda wondered about too and wrote about on this board. This is one reason why I differentiate the true Angle of Approach procedure ( where the golfer sees the straight line) from the hitter with angled who points his plane line 10-5-E but sees a curved blur. Two different animals. Both hitting.

If you go far enough down this path you get into the meat of Homers ball flight laws. Something we can now prove or disprove given doppler radar ... maybe. He was way ahead of the curve on this but Im not sure what his batting average was ... really really good but a perfect 1000 ? I dunno that'd be amazing for a guy who worked with only a pencil, paper and one heck of an inquisitive mind. What a story!

[O.B.Left]

Obviously u can use either or but they should not be paired horizontal hinging and standard wrist action do not go with hitting neither does the arc of approach. Swinger there is a centered motion throw out action from it's center, the hitter is an uncentered straight line thrust the structure of extensor helps both hitting and swinging but the left arm is less important in the uncentered hitters motion I'm not making this stuff up. This seems like another one of those cases where u think homers ideas were just theory or practically a myth. There is an angle of approach folks and the hitter uses it it is not a curved blur it is a straight line off plane in the follow through straight line no curve not making this stuff up folks

And Im not making up the fact that Homer did say a Swinger could possibly use the Angle of Approach procedure . Unlikely , uncommon and highly manipulated though it would be. Homer in his cataloguing defined the two theoretical extremes and everything in the middle. Thats the range of possibilities however ungolf like they may be.

[whip]

By plane shift do you mean a shift up to a club head only eye plane or out to the right 10-5-E . I assume you mean the former... Sorry don't follow. If its the latter and your swinging its just a closed plane line.. Inside out stroke. Draw shot procedure typically with a curved blur.

The true geometric Angle OF Approach Procedure where the club head is seen to travel a straight line delivery line is very un swingerish. Full on manipulation , non shaft planar ..... not a rock on a string deal more of a right arm and club shaft describing a cone shape .... Its a bit of a weird duck.

And this is where my thinking runs into some trouble because Homer in conversation with Yoda said Arnie was a hitter who used the Angle of Approach . But when I imagine what Arnies blur might have looked like to his eye , I think it must have been a curve given his plane angle. Something Yoda wondered about too and wrote about on this board. This is one reason why I differentiate the true Angle of Approach procedure ( where the golfer sees the straight line) from the hitter with angled who points his plane line 10-5-E but sees a curved blur. Two different animals. Both hitting.

If you go far enough down this path you get into the meat of Homers ball flight laws. Something we can now prove or disprove given doppler radar ... maybe. He was way ahead of the curve on this but Im not sure what his batting average was ... really really good but a perfect 1000 ? I dunno that'd be amazing for a guy who worked with only a pencil, paper and one heck of an inquisitive mind. What a story!

Why do u think that because he is on the elbow plane he does not see a straight line also what's this about Doppler I don't believe it.

mj my impressions, in the process of becoming a gseb was that a hitter sees a visually STRAIGHT line of the clubhead blur, unfortunately im not going to delve deeper on that subject because this is the strong impression i have recieved and I am going to stick with it. obviously everyone is entitled to their own interpretations no matter correct or incorrect. It is the intention of this forum i would hope to utilize many minds well versed in TGM to come to conclusions about concepts. sometimes there is just not enough time and the concept somewhat abstract and complex requiring an understanding of all the pitfalls that entail such a discussion. I apologize for any ill will life is too short for any of that.