The Tomasello Tapes -- Chapter Five / Power

[Daz]

Would it be correct to say this start down can occur through maintaining the correct feel in the hands and making the brain aware of the correct plane line that must be traced? I'll have to go back and study the training of zone 1 (I know it is mentioned). But part of me (now) says you don't have to train your body to make the movements to pick up your keys or to reach for a cup of coffee. Thanks.

You certainly did have to train your body to pick up your keys or reach for a cup. It was just so long ago youve forgotten. Now its instinctive and you reinforce it everyday.

Watch a new baby with its rattle and toys they are training their body, hands, arms, fingers.

I know a guy who suffered a stroke and he had to retrain his body completely to do things we take for granted. One of the hardest things for him was learning to use a knife and fork again.

Unfortunately most of us were not introduced to golf at an early enough age to make the movements instinctive.

[SECGolf]

Watch a new baby with its rattle and toys they are training their body, hands, arms, fingers.

I know a guy who suffered a stroke and he had to retrain his body completely to do things we take for granted. One of the hardest things for him was learning to use a knife and fork again.

Heck yes, (and more yes) I'd go right along with the need to educate, and continue to educate the hands, arms, and fingers. I just wonder if you completely and absolutely "get the body" with the hand education (talking of golf stroke only). I think this is what Tomasello is screaming.? Wouldn't other alternatives (no matter how small or slight) venture into the realm of pivot controlled hands?

[6bmike]

Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I'll just post it here..

The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot's movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer. The pivot's pivot gear train begins from the bottom up. Even TT moves his hips first- go check the front viewo pf his swing in chap 9. Small bump that continues to rotate just before the Hands drop.

This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.

Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I hope sometime today.

BUT... The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer

This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.

Understand Hula Hula- maybe one of the top original concepts Mr Kelley developed in his research- and you will see the relationship better between a Hand controlled Pivot and its Pivot components. The Hips, independent from the shoulders, creates a path for the hands. Ever so important for a Hitter to have an avenue and important for a CF gyro cranking swinger to free wheel the Master Accumulator. These actions are not pivot control. With Hula Hula, the Hands have complete guidance to the low point. How can that be pivot control?

Strip away everything a student of Homer Kelley’s book has learned and the last thing you will find- the first thing ever told to the student is Hands Control the Pivot. Even before The Imperatives. It is taught at the earliest introduce to TGM because the physics of a stroke should never control or dominate the geometric alignments. A student must understand this idea right from the start. The ‘reach’ is a nice way to introduce the concept the way elementary students learn about History. Details change the more you study.


Can you let the Hands drop without any hip movement? If that is the way you trained your pivot but I think the hands would be at the mercy of the rotation more so then with Hula Hula- the great highway builder. And not every stroke is a full swing.

Homer says Train the Pivot.
What’s the pivot for?
To Delivery the Hands to Impact.
The Hands train the pivot.
My Hands have trained the pivot (many times)

I have gotten little support discussing Hula Hula and the Training of the Pivot. Mike O and I have discussed this in another thread. I have reviewed all Yoda materials, his old posts, workshop notes and videos and for the life of me can see how Lynn taught me wrong.


Reach or Train, Hula Hula or Drop, Sweep or Snap, Hit or Swing. You got the options.

[Delaware Golf]

Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I'll just post it here..

The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot's movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer. The pivot's pivot gear train begins from the bottom up. Even TT moves his hips first- go check the front viewo pf his swing in chap 9. Small bump that continues to rotate just before the Hands drop.

This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.

Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I hope sometime today.

BUT... The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer

This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.

Understand Hula Hula- maybe one of the top original concepts Mr Kelley developed in his research- and you will see the relationship better between a Hand controlled Pivot and its Pivot components. The Hips, independent from the shoulders, creates a path for the hands. Ever so important for a Hitter to have an avenue and important for a CF gyro cranking swinger to free wheel the Master Accumulator. These actions are not pivot control. With Hula Hula, the Hands have complete guidance to the low point. How can that be pivot control?

Strip away everything a student of Homer Kelley’s book has learned and the last thing you will find- the first thing ever told to the student is Hands Control the Pivot. Even before The Imperatives. It is taught at the earliest introduce to TGM because the physics of a stroke should never control or dominate the geometric alignments. A student must understand this idea right from the start. The ‘reach’ is a nice way to introduce the concept the way elementary students learn about History. Details change the more you study.


Can you let the Hands drop without any hip movement? If that is the way you trained your pivot but I think the hands would be at the mercy of the rotation more so then with Hula Hula- the great highway builder. And not every stroke is a full swing.

Homer says Train the Pivot.
What’s the pivot for?
To Delivery the Hands to Impact.
The Hands train the pivot.
My Hands have trained the pivot (many times)

I have gotten little support discussing Hula Hula and the Training of the Pivot. Mike O and I have discussed this in another thread. I have reviewed all Yoda materials, his old posts, workshop notes and videos and for the life of me can see how Lynn taught me wrong.


Reach or Train, Hula Hula or Drop, Sweep or Snap, Hit or Swing. You got the options.

One great concept in TGM is called "Facts and Illusions".....in the 7th edition you can find that concept on page XII second paragraph.....with this commentary, I hope all can see why Homer put the "Facts and Illusions" concept in the book. It's very real....

In the above comments you're witnessing someone interpreting the golf swing based on Illusion....not fact. Tomasello did not move his hips first on the downswing. That is a frickin Illusion pure and simple. Interesting to find someone in this state. But there it is....

Tomasello's hips react to the action of the Magic of the Right Forearm technique in the last paragraph of 7-3.

In his teaching, Tommy Tomasello used both Standard hip action and delayed (for both procedures he used the right forearm to start the downswing). Both approaches incorporated the use of the right forearm even with standard hip action to keep the HANDS on the straight line delivery path or the hands would have moved to an angled path. Yeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwww

And that's the truth (just the facts from personally studying with Tomasello)..No Illusion.

DG

[6bmike]

One great concept in TGM is called "Facts and Illusions".....in the 7th edition you can find that concept on page XII second paragraph.....with this commentary, I hope all can see why Homer put the "Facts and Illusions" concept in the book. It's very real....

In the above comments you're witnessing someone interpreting the golf swing based on Illusion....not fact. Tomasello did not move his hips first on the downswing. That is a frickin Illusion pure and simple. Interesting to find someone in this state. But there it is....

Tomasello's hips react to the action of the Magic of the Right Forearm technique in the last paragraph of 7-3.

In his teaching, Tommy Tomasello used both Standard hip action and delayed (for both procedures he used the right forearm to start the downswing). Both approaches incorporated the use of the right forearm even with standard hip action to keep the HANDS on the straight line delivery path or the hands would have moved to an angled path. Yeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwww

And that's the truth...

DG

First that someone is me, right, dkbg?

And what kind of state am I in?

This post had little or nothing to do with TT. I just mention that he even moves his hips at the start of the downswing and that it is still a Hands Controlled pivot. The post was about the idea of a Hands controlled pivot and some of its misconceptions.

Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing. You do understand that, do you, HeYaw? Guess not.

Homer said never listen to what they say or write- watch what they do.

[Delaware Golf]

Facts and Illusions ya got to love it...............

DG

[6bmike]

Facts and Illusions ya got to love it...............

DG

Yes- Love them.

Here are two quotes concerning the videos tapes from another Tom Tomasello student who by his account, studied with him longer than anyone else on this forum:

“The true "illusions" that I see are reflected in Tom's "feels" versus what is actually happening.

His narrative and his full speed motion are completely at odds with each other.”


But.... that said. I Totally agree with the next quote from the same former student and now well respect instructor:

What he does leave us with, is a wonderful swinging motion completely subservient to centrifugal force. The full lever extension, sequenced release, left wrist going from cocked, to level, to uncocked, and the right wrist going from level to uncocked are textbook. The Law of the Flail, rhythm, definition of keeping the club on plane, the Flying Wedges, the three imperatives are ALL here! Pay heed all of you swingers! Thanks Tom for all of your enthusiasm, devotion, and your wonderfully infectious manner.

My problem is with YOU and your inability to answer a question that may have you think outside the sphere of TT’s tapes and magazine interview. You are condescending in your remarks to "them" who dare to question a point. "Truth" never needs to steer clear of a question or hide behind a bozo. Tom Tomesallo will always be a pioneer in the instruction of TGM. You on the other hand….

[SECGolf]

[quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.

[quote]

Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.

The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).

[6bmike]

[quote=SECGolf;42074][quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.

Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.

The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).

Good questions- Review the tapes and magazine article. Best to watch the stroke performed in real time ( a very nice stroke) and not the ones in slow motion demostration. Two different things. Illustion's I'm told.

A delayed Hip Action Leads the Downstroke. It doesn't pause then lead. TT used Standard Hip Turn and Action. It sounds more like what you wrote and Tom explains, Circle Hand Path Delivery using the Turning Hip to carry the Right Elbow around to release.
_________
more points:

Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball. This is Precision. Why? Because anytime you allow the hips to move the shoulders in either direction you are in Pivot control Hands. Hula Hula is an independent movement of the Hip Turn with a coordinated shoulder motion. Now the Arms, and Flying Wedges do not need the Hips to move them. They have a clear path to impact once the Hips clear out of the way. A must for Hitters. Swingers can now Drag Load with Instant Acceleration to throw ouit the club. "Clear a Lane and they will come."

Homer wrote... "Execution of a Preselected Pivot....completely uncompromised by Arm and Club Motion...shifting the weight...to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a preselcted sequence and spacing." Sounds like a Pivot that is trained to set up my Hands to the ball. No Roundhouse- On Plane. Free to Swing the Hands and Monitor 1-L A/B/C - Incline Plane- the shaft, Hand Pressure Points- the clubhead and Flat Left Wrist -Clubface control.

Further down in 1-L: "and Mastery of the Pivot (Zone #1) is so esstential for good golf. see 10-19-0" Whats 10-19-0? Lag Loading- Clubhead FEEL.

All this from Hula Hula. Train A pivot. Free your Hands and Swing Them.

[Delaware Golf]

[quote=SECGolf;42074][quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.

Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.

The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).

SECGolf,

Well said....thanks. Standard Hip action and Delayed hip action have the same downstroke hip to shoulder relationship.

Even when Tomasello taught with standard hip action it wasn't pure standard hip action. Halfway through the backswing he instructed the student to use the right forearm to keep the hands on the straight line delivery path, if not, pure standard hip action puts the hands on a top arc and angled line for swinging.

Delayed Hip Action sequence - Right Forearm, Right Hip/Right Forearm, Left Hip
Standard Hip Action Sequence - Right Hip, Right Forearm/Right Forearm, Left Hip

I believe one reason Tommy used standard hip action or at least started the backstroke with the hips was for students who whipped the club behind them with their arms on the backswing (Off-plane).

The motion described in the Tomasello 1991 GI interview is delayed hip action executed per the Magic of the Right Forearm. Pure and Simple.


DG