How terribly close is hitting and swinging?

[nuke99]

Can someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Both left side only gets to PULL, which mean left shoulder still need to still Pull the arms from the top for hitters and to support the 4 1 2 3 release for hitters.

Both Right side only gets to PUSH. even for swingers.

Both require rhythm.. Hitting is not a independently powered right tricep . Very common misconception about hitting.

Both Hitting and swinging can use any hinge action
Both hitting and swinging can use sequential or Overlapping release. and different release points

Swinger use Throwaways.. Hitters use muscular force. And , both hitting or swinging tricep behaves the same , As Active or As passive ( I think the difference is in the participation of pivot, swinger use pivot , hitter, push/punch stroke use or don't use pivot power). Or some might call it extensor action , some might call it No.1 accumulator (but they have no difference in motion and feel, still doing the same job)!.. HOWEVER ... swinger tricep supports the Secondary( pull the shaft thus also makes the back swing longer) assembly while Hitter supports the Primary assembly ( pull left thumb). The HUGE difference of the required axe and rope motion is thus achieved with different no.3 pressure point and elbow position. 90% of the difference is done at setup.

SO... which is why Hitting and swinging execution and motion is very much the same, but with different result in feel , hinging and mechanics.

Ie. a 4 barrel HIT stroke still require a shoulder throw to load the No.4 accumulator.

AND they can Feel very much the same. but different Look and motion.

Any thoughts on this?

[comdpa]

Can someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Both left side only gets to PULL, which mean left shoulder still need to still Pull the arms from the top for hitters and to support the 4 1 2 3 release for hitters.

Both Right side only gets to PUSH. even for swingers.

Both require rhythm.. Hitting is not a independently powered right tricep . Very common misconception about hitting.

Both Hitting and swinging can use any hinge action
Both hitting and swinging can use sequential or Overlapping release. and different release points

Swinger use Throwaways.. Hitters use muscular force. And , both hitting or swinging tricep behaves the same , As Active or As passive ( I think the difference is in the participation of pivot, swinger use pivot , hitter, push/punch stroke use or don't use pivot power). Or some might call it extensor action , some might call it No.1 accumulator (but they have no difference in motion and feel, still doing the same job)!.. HOWEVER ... swinger tricep supports the Secondary( pull the shaft thus also makes the back swing longer) assembly while Hitter supports the Primary assembly ( pull left thumb). The HUGE difference of the required axe and rope motion is thus achieved with different no.3 pressure point and elbow position. 90% of the difference is done at setup.

SO... which is why Hitting and swinging execution and motion is very much the same, but with different result in feel , hinging and mechanics.

Ie. a 4 barrel HIT stroke still require a shoulder throw to load the No.4 accumulator.

AND they can Feel very much the same. but different Look and motion.

Any thoughts on this?

Go and have a think about what you ACTUALLY do during a tug-of-war contest.

[6bmike]

Homer Kelley said that The Golfing Machine produces no un-golf like motions. Outside of the top position of a Hitter- the motion of both strokes are identical. The Action is different- very different.

Some of your analysis is a bit off the mark and some distinction missing, but you are right about the motion being identical.

[nuke99]

Mike, appreciate your thought . Which do you think is Off mark?

Is what you meant the Axe, low speed thrust, overlapping release, release type, trigger delay, throws, Muscular , shorter and vice versa? The characteristics? And what I am trying to say ... regardless if its a HIT or a swing.. we can do both hinges , overlapping or sequential release,

Say Tom Watson is a swinger with highly overlapped release, Bobby Clamppett is a Angled hinge Swinger..Ted fort can do a Horizontal Hit stroke if he likes. Even Un-characteristic of a swing or hit can still be introduced to a stroke and still be called a swinging or hitting by Homer Kelly.

So what really differs a swinger and a hitter ? what are important changes? Thats what i am trying to sort out

So far my conclusion is, we only need to change 3 following things to differ a hit and swing;

1. the way the extensor action ( or acc 1) apply on primary/secondary lever assembly, making it "Active" and "Passive". but the right elbow keep pushing and keep the extensor action ON, at all time .
2. the way the PP#3 is placed( side or top aft), to be driven actively or passively.
3. the punch/pitch Elbow position ,

this 3 changes alone will change the CORE Mechanics/Action between a swing and a HIT in TGM terms, in any case with a pivot delivery stroke, without question?( including cause and effect of the characteristic of hitting and swinging which everyone is familiar with, like we do not need to think the back swing shorter or longer, muscular thrust or throwaway,active or passive tricep+ many other characteristics , it automatically applies),

However , the Execution/Motion is very much the same with just 3 changes... Hum... anybody understand what i am trying to express?

Thats what I am trying to ask...

Give me more clue . Master Comdpa.. not sure where your aiming at...

[6bmike]

First off. Extensor Action IS NOT Accumulator Number One. The First Power Accumulator DRIVES the Lever Assemblies. The straightening right arm drives #1 Pressure Point and #3 Pressure Point behind the shaft. Of the Four Thrusts- 6-C-0, the second type, 6-C-0-2, Extensor Action, is the only Non- Accelerating thrust. It is an in-line action. Extensor action pulls the left arm in a straight line but doesn’t push the left arm or lever assembly towards the ball. Extensor Action is present in both CF throw-Out Swing and Muscle Power Drive of the straightening Right arm. The Swinger’s Right arm is inert and the Hitter’s right arm is active muscle power. Extensor Action is the glue of the Flying Wedges- it welds the structure. It is not power. Accumulator One is POWER.
On the 45 point Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes, 12-3-0, Extensor Action is 20 per cent of the list. (see: Homer’s Greatest Hits Video clip)

Lynn explained this way: The accelerating Thrust of Accumulator 1 is “anything but a ‘gentle Stretching’ of the Left Arm. Instead, it is a decisive -- even rigid (7-1) -- Thrust! - that Uncocks both the Right Elbow and the Left Wrist.”

The number three Pressure Point is not “placed” differently. It is not relocated by the type of grip but by the Left Wrist Action on the take-away for the Swinger. A Hitter uses a Single, 10-18-C-2 which keeps the #3pp behind the shaft. A Swinger uses Standard, 10-18-A, that is Turned on Take-away and places the #3pp under the shaft at the End of the stroke. Only the Turned hand relocates the relationship of pp3 to the plane. (see- “PP3 Where are you?” Video clip)

Motion is Geometry (of the Circle). The Geometry of the Circle is always the same for Hit and Swinger, save perhaps for some uncompensated stroke. Action is force. The power that is very different in the two patterns. Swinger’s Throw –OUT (not “away”) and flirts with Throw-away since they strike the ball with a whirling clubhead they have no control over. A Hitter Drives or Pushes the ENTIRE club - shaft and Clubhead. They have total control of the clubhead. And the ball, which makes Hitting a great scoring stroke. This makes #1pp active and a Hitter's best friend.

Of the 24 components 9 are different. 10-, 3, 4, 10, 11, 18, 19 ,20 ,21, and 22. Sometimes a Hitter likes to start at address with a Bent Right and a Flat Left Wrist(s).
Also see 6-H-0-E and F.


Swinger’s don’t push anything- It is All throw-OUT. Hitter’s are like Boxers- they Drive and Push. The Right Elbow can Delay release just as the Swinger’s snap release Left wrist Throw Delays release.

A Hitter doesn’t Pull his arm/hands back to the Plane since Top is right shoulder high but Pulls his Pivot taut. Results in the same position - same pivot lag loaded.
A Swingers Pivot CORRECTLY “gets out of the way” for the Hands. The Right Shoulder (pivot) is a rotor. A Hitter’s Pivot also “gets out of the way” but also allows the right shoulder to support the driving right arm. The Right Shoulder (pivot) is the "equal and opposite reaction” platform to support the drive down of the right arm to the ball. It is still a turning body motion- the action is different and undetectable by the viewer.

You can use any Hinge Angle for any stroke but not without a cost or difficulty. Dual HH is perfect for a CF throw-out and the Accumulator #1 Drive Down is works naturally with Angled Hinge Action Angle of Approach attack on the ball. Hinge Action is rhythm, so rhythm is of course used in both patterns. Each are listed as imperative in 6-H-0-E-1 and 6-H-0-F-1.

And there are Plane Lines, Stance Lines and Delivery Paths and Lines that work better for one over the other. "Drive to Right Field" is a common Hitter's Swing thought.

Adjutsmenst to ball position, Clubface at address

What looks similair, works differently.

_____________________________

Disclaimer: I am only talking about the two basic stroke patterns in the 6th Edition- The Swing Stroke Pattern- Drag Loaded- and the Hit Stroke Pattern- Drive Loaded.
If I am wrong with what I posted or still have some fog lingering on my thoughts as I wrote them that makes it less than satisfactory please discuss this with me. Otherwise, I do not post about, endorse, advocate, or use any Right Arm Swing or whichever variation of a right side CF throw or push by any practitioner or practitioners, so question, concerns or rebut should begin another thread in good spirit. IMHO.

[neil]

Those were two great posts-for different reasons but still great!

[Bagger Lance]

Nuke,

They are "very" terribly close. So much so that the majority of golfers do both. There are also folks who think they are hitting but are swinging, and folks that think they are swinging but really hitting.

A pure swing or hit takes knowledge, practice, and the keen eyes of a great instructor. There are very few pure examples IMHO.

We tend to think in terms of right arm effort or lack thereof, but it's the pivot and right shoulder motion that sets up the differentiation along with many other factors. The right arm has to push against something stable for a pure hit. The right shoulder is the stable brace for that action. A swingers pivot allows the right shoulder to freely spin.

Pure hitters use a different set of variables for address, takeaway, backstroke, loading, downstroke, release, impact and follow-through and finish.

To make an effective hitting stroke, it helps to know how to optimize each section of the stroke for the hit. Using the standard swingers motion for every section of the "hit" except for the downstroke and release just doesn't cut it for a true hit. In fact, that would be much more of a swing because your massive rotor has set up the throw out. Once that is set up, you may not be able to override CF, not that you would even want to.

Even though they look the same and can be deceptively similar, the differentiators are found in each section of the motion. Hitters set up to hit. Swingers set up to swing.

Blenders try to mix; one part address swing, two parts backstroke hit, a dash of swing loading, 2 parts downstroke swing, a 12 piece bucket of release hit, a dash of impact hit, two teaspoons of follow-through swing, and a cup of finish hit just to look good.

Blend vigorously and find your ball in the morning.

[YodasLuke]

Disclaimer: I am only talking about the two basic stroke patterns in the 6th Edition- The Swing Stroke Pattern- Drag Loaded- and the Hit Stroke Pattern- Drive Loaded.
If I am wrong with what I posted or still have some fog lingering on my thoughts as I wrote them that makes it less than satisfactory please discuss this with me. Otherwise, I do not post about, endorse, advocate, or use any Right Arm Swing or whichever variation of a right side CF throw or push by any practitioner or practitioners, so question, concerns or rebut should begin another thread in good spirit. IMHO.

Great post. But, the disclaimer is pure brilliance (IMHO).

[nuke99]

Mike...

This is what I am trying to explain in a different way. We are talking the same thing, but a different "angle of approach". Stick with me for a moment, try to assimilate what I am trying to say ... Not sure I am a good writer ...

Does our tricep know its accumulator 1 or extensor action? The job is only to contract and straighten.

Pointing to chapter on Extensor Action / 7-3 .. and My point is ...

By just pulling the shaft ( yes its still thumb since the grip is connected), the secondary assembly, the behavior of the swinger tricep power becomes Passive . there is NO way the tricep becomes active if its pulled that way .. ( the forearm in this case supports the Secondary assembly ) ( not to mention the wrist becomes "active") , the swing becomes Longer as well since the arm triangle is not 'rigid'

By Pulling the thumb, the primary assembly , the behavior of the Hitter tricep power becomes Active and Accumulator 1 comes to play. The 'Triangle' of both arm , the primary assembly becomes rigid . thus becomes POWER. The swing is short because of that bio mechanical difference.

IN both case , the tricep straightens. It doesn't know why she straighten for ... Accumulator 1 or Extensor action ,, it just straighten.

IN any case .. Rhythm have to be maintained , and the tricep have to keep on straigthening. THUS !... the reason why its isn't that different.

And because the way the left arm is pulled ... the Action /mechanics thus become different . Automatically. Thats why I think to myself,, wow isn't that beautiful ? .... CAUSE ... and Effect

No.3 pressure point is slightly counter - clockwise .. top aft for swinger ( with a ? shape trigger finger) and aft for hitters...

Reason is , the way the elbow is positioned, the grip have to be slightly different. but presumably BOTH strong single .

Since the club is "PULLED" in swinging by pitch elbow... the location of the PP 3 have to behind the club going downplane in the downswing , so the location is 1/4 turn different than hitting( its in the book) ... it becomes more compatible in sequential release.. besides that becomes a wrist throw ... The pitch elbow becomes the secondary assembly support from the right forearm...

And because of these setup and methods... the results become different ..

SO everything actually " linked " together...How beautiful is the brain of Homer Kelly?

And my point is , the 24 components of the swinging and hitting model and seem like so many difference, with a simple change of 3 things ( not simply component) it changes the rest of the component and characteristics .. automatically between a , a DRAG and a DRIVE Pattern in the book.. I AM NOT TALKING OUTSIDE OF THE BOOK. AND I AM TALKING BASIC PATTERN AS WELL

Length of swing = Checked
Rope or Axe = checked
Active or passive tricep = checked
Accumulator 1 or Extensor action = checked
Overlap or sequential release = checked.
Muscle or CF throwaway = checked
Drag or Drive load = checked

Wroooong ? still?


Maybe i shouldn't have mentioned tom watson and bobby etc... It steers people off point.

[nuke99]

Nobody got my point ? ....

Sorry I write Ugly...