Definitions- Back to Basics

[12 piece bucket]

For me- using TGM terms - Pure=True

That's 7-2 - True Swinging or True Hitting.

Pure Hitting would be when the acceleration method- pushing - automatically aligns the clubface. As opposed to "Hand Manipulaton", i.e. consciously or subconsciously- making sure you arrive at impact with a flat, level and vertical left wrist - assuming that you took your grip that way.

Vertical to what?

[6bmike]

In a left arm swing, the right arm push.
In a right arm swing, the right arm Swings around the right elbow and the left swing along with it, and flat left wrist is no longer an imperative...

Good Luck!

[Mike O]

Vertical to what?

Vertical to the ground.

7-10 6th edition 4th paragraph- vertical to the ground at impact (fix)

[nuke99]

Good Luck!

its in the book ...

I -F. RIGHT ARM OR LEFT The "mystery" of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood (6-B-1). Whether its participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually because in either case the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Forearm is ALWAYS DRIVING. But it is always a Left Arm Stroke unless the Right Elbow replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of the Club head Arc. (10-3-K)This, alone, does not properly separate "Hitters" and "Swingers" because it is possible to "Swing" the Club with either Arm but only the Right Arm can actually "Hit".

10-3-K.
BAT The term "Bat" indicates that the Club is being accelerated by the Right Arm (1-F) but always with an Axe Handle procedure per 2-K, 6-B-1 and 10-11-0. It is always a "Hit" per 10-19-A, except as noted in 1-F and 7-19. Study 7-1. The center of the Club head orbit is readily transferred from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow. The Right Arm now is actually driving the Club head rather than the Left Arm and the Flat Left Wrist is now helpful but not essential


so...

[12 piece bucket]

Vertical to the ground.

7-10 6th edition 4th paragraph- vertical to the ground at impact (fix)

What part of the wrist?

[6bmike]

its in the book ...

I -F. RIGHT ARM OR LEFT The "mystery" of the Mechanics of Golf fades away when Right Arm participation is understood (6-B-1). Whether its participation is active or passive is difficult to detect visually because in either case the Left Arm is ALWAYS SWINGING and the Right Forearm is ALWAYS DRIVING. But it is always a Left Arm Stroke unless the Right Elbow replaces the Left Shoulder as the center of the Club head Arc. (10-3-K)This, alone, does not properly separate "Hitters" and "Swingers" because it is possible to "Swing" the Club with either Arm but only the Right Arm can actually "Hit".

10-3-K.
BAT The term "Bat" indicates that the Club is being accelerated by the Right Arm (1-F) but always with an Axe Handle procedure per 2-K, 6-B-1 and 10-11-0. It is always a "Hit" per 10-19-A, except as noted in 1-F and 7-19. Study 7-1. The center of the Club head orbit is readily transferred from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow. The Right Arm now is actually driving the Club head rather than the Left Arm and the Flat Left Wrist is now helpful but not essential


so...

There is no way in the world a golf stroke can be accomplished without the right arm driving.
A driving right arm does not mean it is pushing against a pulling Left arm. It means it is driving to be straight- it is always driving, not always PUSHING. A major difference because pushing is an action and driving is a motion. It is hard to see the difference between the motion of accum3 and accum1.


So.. if you like to bent the left wrist and push with it with the right arm- go ahead ... and good luck. If you want to go with a Right Arm Swing, the "Bat" - go ahead and good luck.

But to me a flat Left wrist is an Imperative for all strokes especially Swinging. It is the left arm Flying Wedge. I don't play without them.

[Mike O]

What part of the wrist?

First, stop drinking! But I'll play with ya- awhile longer.

We're using the "wrist" in Golfing Machine terms- Chapter 4.

Actually the "wrist" is composed of 8 bones and I'm not talking about any of them- since visually they are of no practical help. In regards to the concept "flat left wrist" - It's the relationship of the back of the hand to the forearm- we could break out the bone relationships but you get the idea- unless you are into the second bottle

In regards to the concept "vertical left wrist"- It's the relationship of an (open flat hand and the forearm) to the ground i.e. back of the hand and forearm against a door. Then you take the grip. After gripping the club, the back of the hand from pinky to thumb normally doesn't form a flat surface. If you were trying to determine "vertical" to the ground at that point- you'd need to use the middle of the back of the hand for the best reference.

If you haven't passed out - I'll give you one more before I start drinking.

[12 piece bucket]

First, stop drinking! But I'll play with ya- awhile longer.

We're using the "wrist" in Golfing Machine terms- Chapter 4.

Actually the "wrist" is composed of 8 bones and I'm not talking about any of them- since visually they are of no practical help. In regards to the concept "flat left wrist" - It's the relationship of the back of the hand to the forearm- we could break out the bone relationships but you get the idea- unless you are into the second bottle

In regards to the concept "vertical left wrist"- It's the relationship of an open flat hand- to the ground i.e. back of the hand against a door. Then you take the grip. After gripping the club, the back of the hand from pinky to thumb normally doesn't form a flat surface. If you were trying to determine "vertical" to the ground at that point- you'd need to use the middle of the back of the hand for the best reference.

If you haven't passed out - I'll give you one more before I start drinking.

What if you got a different . . . hiccup . . . grip type? What's vertical then?

[Mike O]

What if you got a different . . . hiccup . . . grip type? What's vertical then?

Maybe nothing then. That's why in post #11 I said 'assuming you take the grip with the left wrist vertical.

Homer's point in 10-2-G is that if you don't have some visual geometric validation for any particular feel- then as he says "Feel loses it geometric basis" and that's why he mentions the "True" Swing in 10-2-G because those grips are theoretically speaking only ideal if one were a "True" Swinger whereby centrifugal force automatically aligns the clubface- in relation to the body i.e. how far back or up it is in relation to the pivot. As opposed to a Ball related "manipulated swinger" where by while you are still using centrifugal force for accelerating the shaft- but you over-ride the automated alignment of the clubface based on the line of pull through the longitudinal center of gravity and you just make sure that you come into impact with the left wrist in its correct alignment- whatever that is that you may have pre-chosen.

It's like two layers of using Centrifugal force- the first layer is for the clubshaft and if you just completely let it control everything then the second layer is for the clubface.

[Mike O]

In a left arm swing, the right arm push.
In a right arm swing, the right arm Swings around the right elbow and the left swing along with it, and flat left wrist is no longer an imperative...

----------------------------
So....

Anything which allow CF throwout is swinging or works like a sling. Allow the assembly to work like a Flail. True swinger.

And another side of the extreme , true hitter. Muscular drive out. True hitter.


Then there is somewhere in between. This is where its a little Grey...

IMPO. As long as the right, forearm supports the secondary assembly , CF throwout in the picture, left arm have 2 hinges and pulled like a rope. if the forearm supports Primary assembly, there is no way to get CF throwout and the left arm becomes a brick wall as there is only one hinge.

and if this"passive" extensor action pulls the PP 1+3 , I believe the extensor action is more "active" than the extensor action just pulling via pp 3 ..

7-3 explains of such combination of extensor action. Merely on PP3 will have extreme " throwaway" . Thus with PP 1 + PP3 could be preferred on full swing ,

PP1 an PP3 pulling of extensor action, will have effect on how to setup the Flail. thus create different type of Slinging action. but both are swinging...
one look more softer and wristy with more "throw'. one look more powerful with more "drive". 7-3 right forearm have to be thrown or driven .

Nuke,
I always prefer a post that stays on one topic and limits it coverage area- tough to follow or respond for me- but that's just me maybe and not your post.

From the start your post throws me- "A left arm swing the right arm push"? Lost you there. No it doesn't have to push- for example I've seen one armed left hand golfers make golf swings. You could do the same thing and just have the right arm on for the ride. Beyond some other comments in your post, your first comment is just confusing for me.

Also, just because the right tricep is one of the muscles straightening the right arm doesn't mean that you have a hitting motion nor would it mean that it is a right arm stroke- i.e. right elbow center of stroke. I've been fly casting with Bucket (well not really but I wanted to include him in my post- poor guy has no friends!) and I used just my right hand and arm to swing it out there- I've also taken a wet towel with my right hand and arm and smacked some ...... never-mind that's another "swinging" story.

But before we get off topic too far- I identified in the book a section or two that supported my answer that "Pure" or "True" meant a reliance on the acceleration method to align the clubface. You stated a different answer for what "True" is in Golfing Machine Terminology- so please back that up with your references.

Thanks